Wapiti Talk | Elk Hunting Forum | Elk Hunting Tips
 

Cut on contact vs. Mechanic and frontal shots...

Moderators: Lefty, Swede, Tigger, Indian Summer, WapitiTalk1

Cut on contact vs. Mechanic and frontal shots...

Postby RaisingArrows » 07 16, 2020 •  [Post 1]

And why? I’ve seen logical explanations for both. I currently have both, as well as some hybrid bloodsports. They look wicked but I’ve not used them. What type of broad head are y’all using? Brand, weight, and any good story behind it? Any thoughts on frontal shots?
RaisingArrows
Rank: New User
 
Posts: 5
Joined: 06 10, 2020

Re: Cut on contact vs. Mechanic and frontal shots...

Postby Swede » 07 17, 2020 •  [Post 2]

I am not that fussy about brand or type of broadhead I use. Right now I am using Slick Trick four blade ones, but have several others too. If the broadhead is sharp, has sufficient size, and flies well on your arrow, it will do the job. I have never shot a mechanical broadhead, but if it functions properly it too will be lethal. As for the frontal shot; it is lethal if you hit the opening to the chest cavity. It is like the spine shot. You must hit it precisely.
Swede
Wapiti Hunting - Tree Stand Tactics
 
Posts: 8293
Joined: 06 16, 2012

Re: Cut on contact vs. Mechanic and frontal shots...

Postby Trumkin the Dwarf » 07 17, 2020 •  [Post 3]

I have a theory about frontal shots... namely that it is most likely to be deadly when you hit the arteries in the neck, or going into the top of the heart. Since we can't determine what orientation the broadhead will be in when it hits the animal (i.e. vertical = bad). I would prefer to only take it with a 3 blade, giving the greatest likely hood of catching those vertical arteries. I don't think I'd want a 3 blade mechanical for a broadside shot on an elk, as it would lose so much penetration. So I guess I'd suggest a fixed 3 blade.
User avatar
Trumkin the Dwarf
Rank: An Elk Nut
 
Posts: 512
Joined: 06 14, 2013
Location: Montana
First Name: Malachi
Last Name: C

Re: Cut on contact vs. Mechanic and frontal shots...

Postby RaisingArrows » 07 18, 2020 •  [Post 4]

I have a theory about frontal shots... namely that it is most likely to be deadly when you hit the arteries in the neck, or going into the top of the heart. Since we can't determine what orientation the broadhead will be in when it hits the animal (i.e. vertical = bad). I would prefer to only take it with a 3 blade, giving the greatest likely hood of catching those vertical arteries.
Trumkin the Dwarf wrote: I don't think I'd want a 3 blade mechanical for a broadside shot on an elk, as it would lose so much penetration. So I guess I'd suggest a fixed 3 blade.


What about chisel tip? I’ve heard people swearing by them.
RaisingArrows
Rank: New User
 
Posts: 5
Joined: 06 10, 2020

Re: Cut on contact vs. Mechanic and frontal shots...

Postby Swede » 07 18, 2020 •  [Post 5]

If my observations are correct, you are majoring in minors. There are a lot of good broadheads out there that will get the job done.
I can't tell the difference between a good COC broadhead and a chisel tip. Penetration depends on so many other factors that it is impossible to say one is better than the other. I would say that a heavier arrow absorbs more of the bow's energy than a light one does, and will generally penetrate deeper, but how far did the arrow travel losing energy.
What did it hit inside the animal? This is just a gut feeling, but I would prefer to hit a rib with a chisel point broadhead. Arrows kill by causing massive hemorrhaging. Where you hit with a super sharp arrow is what counts.
Swede
Wapiti Hunting - Tree Stand Tactics
 
Posts: 8293
Joined: 06 16, 2012

Re: Cut on contact vs. Mechanic and frontal shots...

Postby Indian Summer » 07 22, 2020 •  [Post 6]

If car’s didn’t have moving parts they’d never break down.
User avatar
Indian Summer
Wapiti Hunting Consultant
 
Posts: 4696
Joined: 06 14, 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
First Name: Joe
Last Name: Ferraro

Re: Cut on contact vs. Mechanic and frontal shots...

Postby Swede » 07 22, 2020 •  [Post 7]

Indian Summer wrote:If car’s didn’t have moving parts they’d never break down.


And you wouldn't get anywhere with them either, but that is another matter.
Swede
Wapiti Hunting - Tree Stand Tactics
 
Posts: 8293
Joined: 06 16, 2012

Re: Cut on contact vs. Mechanic and frontal shots...

Postby Trumkin the Dwarf » 07 27, 2020 •  [Post 8]

RaisingArrows wrote:What about chisel tip? I’ve heard people swearing by them.


For what purpose? A frontal shot? Any shot?

You need to setup your arrow to perform well on any and all ethical shot angles, so picking a broadhead is always a balancing act. Confidence is deadly when it comes to making a shot so you need to be able to explain the "Why" of your equipment, including broadheads. Swede finds that just about any fixed blade head works well on elk, so he's confident shooting whatever 6 pack is on sale at Wally world. I shoot a traditional bow so I am a little pickier about the broadheads I shoot, as I don't have as much energy in my system. Indian Summer makes a great point that you really can't have total confidence in a mechanical broadhead if you really think about the basic facts of moving systems.

As for chisel tips, they do well at one thing, and that's handling bone impact. But so does any other well made, cut on contact, fixed blade broadhead. If you're worried about bone on a frontal shot, you need to go do more studying about the shot, and shouldn't be taking it. If you hit bones there, you're not packing elk meat out.
User avatar
Trumkin the Dwarf
Rank: An Elk Nut
 
Posts: 512
Joined: 06 14, 2013
Location: Montana
First Name: Malachi
Last Name: C

Re: Cut on contact vs. Mechanic and frontal shots...

Postby BrowTines » 07 30, 2020 •  [Post 9]

First, I would only take a frontal shot in close quarters. For me that means 15/20 yards or less, and I have taken that shot with success. Mechanicals may be fine for some shot angles but I think fixed broadheads give you more options with angles for slipping through to the vitals. On Youtube, I have watched a lot of shots on elk with both and clearly there is a penetration cost with the opening of the blades. I watched a number of videos where the shot was at an angle where the mechanical basically failed to go deep enough. The arrow is not getting the same penetration that you get with a good fixed blade. On a frontal shot, you want the arrow penetrating deep, going back behind the heart and entering the lungs. Yes, you may clip an artery going in the neck or hit the top of the heart but if there is any variation in shot placement, you are now hoping that penetration will do the job. I think it would be difficult to achieve that kind of penetration with a mechanical.
User avatar
BrowTines
Rank: New User
 
Posts: 38
Joined: 04 02, 2017
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: Cut on contact vs. Mechanic and frontal shots...

Postby RaisingArrows » 08 01, 2020 •  [Post 10]

I ended up with Day Six arrows and broad heads. Where I hunt in Arkansas, we only have a 7 day shotgun season on white tails. It’s Archery from September 1-February 28. I figured I’d recapitalize my hunting gear this year. Day Six it is. Should work.
RaisingArrows
Rank: New User
 
Posts: 5
Joined: 06 10, 2020

Re: Cut on contact vs. Mechanic and frontal shots...

Postby Beendare » 08 11, 2020 •  [Post 11]

I've seen approx. 10-12 elk die to a frontal shot....with about 6 of them being mine....zero losses.

My take; I've shot one elk with a spitfire mech head frontal...the rest all either chisel points or COC fixed heads. All were devastating...only the one mech head shot made it more than 60 yds...and that one was a weird one...the bull ran off 40 yds...passed out [is all I can figure] and broke his back leg in a rock slide...then limped off another 100 yds or so.

I think max penetration matters on a frontal. The key to this shot is shoot it a little higher than you would think to clear that big breastbone and get it in through that opening in the skeletal structure.

The other key...and this is with any shot...pick a distance where if they move a little its not going to screw up the shot location. Animals do funny things when they hear a twang...and see an arrow speeding towards them. A bull that takes one in the shoulder can go a long ways...and never be found.

I get a fair amount of these as I am sometimes calling solo with a decoy...and they come right to the deke. I like taking this shot at about 25 yds and in...essentially...when its a layup shot and I feel they can't move fast enough to screw me up. I've shot almost all of my frontals with the bull walking in....I didn't stop them.

The arrow was already in them before they knew what happened.

I like the way a COC BH goes through an elk...and many times they don't know what happened...I've had them just stand there confused...until they fall over. The frontal is different...they seem to know there is a foreign body lodged in their gullet...though they usually hunch up and don't go far.

The most dramatic example; about 30 yrs ago I was calling for a buddy in the Strawberries, and we had a bull come across BS until he saw my buddy swinging to track him at 25 yds. The bull spun like a cat....all ready to bolt. [I was thinking, "Ugh Oh...not good"].

My buddy shot...and that bull took the arrow right above the brisket buried completely...reared up like the Lone Rangers Horse...took 2 steps and down right there breaking a downed log in the process. Wild. The tip of that BH was in the hide on the back ham...7' of elk lengthwise.


_____
“It takes no more time to see the good side of life.... than to see the bad.”
― Jimmy Buffett

"Everybody has a plan....until they get punched in the mouth" Mike Tyson




"
User avatar
Beendare
Wapiti Hunting Archery Gear/Tactics
 
Posts: 185
Joined: 02 20, 2017
Location: Ca


cron