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Smokepole? *Update*

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Smokepole? *Update*

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 11 24, 2018 •  [Post 1]

I’ve opened up some dialogue with Saddlesore about getting my first ever muzzleloader (he knows a thing or two about this type of weapon/hunting). Figured I’d start a thread here so all could partipate ;). What do you ML folks use for your weapon? Why do you like your particular make/model? I’m in WA so no scopes allowed but we can use the new inlines/209 primered rigs. Perhaps any brands to avoid? Lets hear your thoughts. BOOM! :D
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby saddlesore » 11 24, 2018 •  [Post 2]

Here is a discussion about ML's that is on another forum..Might pick up some ideas there.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthrea ... st13254213
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby >>>---WW----> » 11 24, 2018 •  [Post 3]

I had one about 20 years ago. Got rid of it pretty quick. It had some beautiful wood and checkering. But shot about a 12" group. Terrible!!!! So my only advice would be to stay away from anything with a 1 in 60 twist. I think they are made for round balls. Not sure about that but it sure wouldn't shoot mini balls. Good luck, Hope you find a good one!
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby Elkhntr08 » 11 24, 2018 •  [Post 4]

I’ve got a Remington 700ML, but don’t shoot it much. Cleaning the stupid thing isn’t much fun. It does shoot good though.
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby Swede » 11 24, 2018 •  [Post 5]

I had a traditional cap fired ML about 30 years ago. I have no desire to go back. I have a lot more opportunity here in Oregon with my bow.
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby Elkduds » 11 24, 2018 •  [Post 6]

deerstalker.small.png
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1. Lyman Deerstalker .54. Lyman peep sight which I can't see well anymore. Old school high end caplock. 3" @100 yds when I could take advantage of the peep. Patched round ball or T/C Maxiball. Recoil.



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2. CVA Optima .50. Find these used for $150ish. @ least as accurate as the Lyman, weighs less, synthetic/cerakote, dayglo ghost ring :!: sights. Inline protected ignition, always goes bang, easier to clean. Easier to load and shoot accurately, mine likes Hornady FPB. I'd sell you my Lyman if you were nostalgic, but for hunting you'll much prefer a modern inline. The CVAs are very good values.


ramrod.small.png
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3 Ramrod. Suggest removing this before discharging weapon.


There is a fun, interesting learning curve; for instance #3 above.
PM if I can assist.
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 11 25, 2018 •  [Post 7]

Yep, an looking at the CVA line pretty hard; looks/sounds like a good rig.

Question: With these modern ML’s, can you “unload” them at the end of the hunt or do you still have to shoot them to empty?
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby saddlesore » 11 25, 2018 •  [Post 8]

WapitiTalk1 wrote:Yep, an looking at the CVA line pretty hard; looks/sounds like a good rig.

Question: With these modern ML’s, can you “unload” them at the end of the hunt or do you still have to shoot them to empty?


You can unscrew the breech plug and take the powder out ,and then push the bullet out.Kind'a messy, but you can keep the powder out of the action a few different ways.

BTW, if you use BH209,powder,it likes to have a good bit of pressure on it when you seat the bullet for bestaccuracy.More so than black powder, 777. or pyrodex
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby Indian Summer » 11 25, 2018 •  [Post 9]

I have a Thompson Center Renegade flintlock. It’s the only type legal in Pa.

I also have a Traditions inline. I love it! It has a detachable scope so I can yank that off if need be to be legal. I bought it in Washington specifically for hunting there. The biggest difference between that and most others is weight. Most muzzleloaders are really heavy. Front heavy to be more specific. That Traditions is a dream to carry. Also it has a Cerakote barrel instead of blued. I liked that for the western Washington rainy season which is 364 days a year. The price was right too. I’d highly recommend checking those out.
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby Elkduds » 11 25, 2018 •  [Post 10]

saddlesore wrote:
WapitiTalk1 wrote:Yep, an looking at the CVA line pretty hard; looks/sounds like a good rig.

Question: With these modern ML’s, can you “unload” them at the end of the hunt or do you still have to shoot them to empty?


You can unscrew the breech plug and take the powder out ,and then push the bullet out.Kind'a messy, but you can keep the powder out of the action a few different ways.



Breech plug is finger-tight. W a break-open action, it is simple to unscrew the plug for unloading, also for cleaning from the breech end.
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby saddlesore » 11 25, 2018 •  [Post 11]

Don't know if they all have them, but one of my hunting buddies has a Traditions. It has a rear FO sight on a base that you loosen a screw that clamps the sight. Then slide the sight up or down on a ramp to adjust the elevation . That part of the sight is plastic and when you tighten the screw to lock the sight in place,the clamp breaks. My buddy is on his 3rd one.

All the older TC side locks and some newer models like the Black Diamonds before the break open inlines had those rear sights that were spring loaded.The elevation adjusting screw that kept the sight adjusted had a tendency to work loose and you didn't notice it until you missed an elk .The balance point on those guns was such that a person tended to carry them right at that rear sight which I suppose added to the problem
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby lamrith » 11 25, 2018 •  [Post 12]

Nice info Elkduds!

Where would you recommend looking for a used CVA?
'15 Elite E35. 30.5", 67#
100Gr. G5 montecs
Sportsman's Vital Impact 300spine

http://www.pelletpeddler.com
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby Elkduds » 11 25, 2018 •  [Post 13]

I shopped here:
www.armslist.com/classifieds/
Muzzleloaders do not have to be shipped to, from or by FFL dealers. I can buy yours, you ship it directly to me, no transfer fee. I found many for sale in the south and east. I think mine came from a small storefront gunshop in GA, I paid w paypal.
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby Fridaythe13th » 11 26, 2018 •  [Post 14]

Cva Kodak is what I have, I think. It was my wedding gift to me. Why wouldn't a person buy a gun for a wedding gift. Only went hunting with it 1 years misfired on a bull elk. I still cry a little at night, it was a nice bull.
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby Lefty » 11 26, 2018 •  [Post 15]

A week ago Monday my wife suggested stopping at Sportsmans Warehouse, she needed boots.
Even sporting goods stores I have a hard time shopping.
Walked out with a Traditions Buck Stalker.
Up looking for elk every hunter had something in theTC line,.. my guess because they are simplistic and priced decent
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 11 26, 2018 •  [Post 16]

Lefty wrote: Walked out with a Traditions Buck Stalker.

Nice! You'll have to let us know how you like it/how it shoots.
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby Indian Summer » 11 26, 2018 •  [Post 17]

Lefty wrote:A week ago Monday my wife suggested stopping at Sportsmans Warehouse, she needed boots.
Even sporting goods stores I have a hard time shopping.
Walked out with a Traditions Buck Stalker.
Up looking for elk every hunter had something in theTC line,.. my guess because they are simplistic and priced decent


Love my Traditions!
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby Old school » 11 27, 2018 •  [Post 18]

I've hunted with blackpowder and taken quite a few whitetails with them. I've only used 2 brands and have been thrilled with both.

1. CVA Accura V2 - I researched it to death like I always do before I made a purchase. For value, I bought it and I have not been disappointed. If I had to do it over again, I'd buy it again.
2. Knight - first muzzleloader I ever bought and it served me well and was a tack driver. My youngest son shoots it now.

The CVA Accura V2 will shoot better than I can. I can give you some contact info as well for a muzzle loader expert that helped me dial in my loads I shoot as far as powder/sabot/bullet/primer.

Furthest shot I've taken has been right around 175 yards and it performed flawlessly. Bullet impacted where it was supposed to and the buck was dead on impact.

-Mitch
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby stringunner » 11 27, 2018 •  [Post 19]

Good info here. Thankful for all these posts. I’ve been considering dabbling in this arena.
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 11 27, 2018 •  [Post 20]

Great input Mitch, thanks! I have pretty much settled on one of the CVA models (Accura or Optima). I will definitely take you up on the contact info before I start ordering powder loads/projectiles.
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby Old school » 11 27, 2018 •  [Post 21]

I researched between the 2 of them (Optima and Accura V2) and went with the Accura V2 for these reasons:

1. Bergara barrel - cant beat it for what matters most - accuracy.
2. Stock configuration - I wanted a thumbhole stock. Accura gives you more choices
3. Adjustable trigger


Everyone's wants and needs are different, but that's why I chose the Accura V2.


A good resource and chart can be found at https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/articles ... va-optima/


--Mitch
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby scubohuntr » 11 27, 2018 •  [Post 22]

WARNING! CURMUDGEON'S OPINION AHEAD! YOU MAY NOT AGREE WITH IT!

Personally, I hate inlines. As a gun, they're fine, but shooting a saboted pistol bullet with a 209 primer and smokeless powder from a stainless and synthetic rifle with a scope is really not in the spirit of muzzleloading. The entire reason there are separate seasons in the first place is that it's supposed to be a primitive weapon. It seems to me that every time a special season comes up, the first thing everyone thinks is, "How much can I get away with?" Gotta push the envelope. I'm all for equipment innovation and progress, but there are places where tradition is at least as important.

That said, it seems I am the only one who's not into inlines. I have been trying to sell an unfired Lyman Great Plains percussion .54 (roundball twist, the way it ought to be) on several forums for two years, and nobody wants it. Montana doesn't have a muzzleloader season, so it really doesn't do me much good. I haven't fired it in hopes of keeping the value up. Maybe I'll start using it in weapons restricted areas.
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby Swede » 11 27, 2018 •  [Post 23]

In principle I agree with Scubohuntr, but the States have already factored that into their allotment of tags for the black powder hunters. I think having a smoke-pole might be a good option for a two State hunter like RJ.
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby ishy » 11 27, 2018 •  [Post 24]

I have an CVA wolf that might be for sale on Dec. 9th with all the goods. Only shot twice at the range and hasn't been in the woods...
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby saddlesore » 11 28, 2018 •  [Post 25]

Swede wrote:In principle I agree with Scubohuntr, but the States have already factored that into their allotment of tags for the black powder hunters. I think having a smoke-pole might be a good option for a two State hunter like RJ.


I have both and one in between and have killed elk with all three.I am on my third barrle with my side lock but since TC doesn't make them anymore,I don't use it as much.

My concession to the inline was two fold. The side lock is 9 pounds and the inline is 6 pounds.This old guy has trouble carrying that 9 pounds around the hills.The second being,in Colorado ML seasons is typically rainy.Not so much in the last few years,but even taking all the precautions to keep my powder dry,it is disheartening after trekking around in the rain 5-6 days you finally get onto elk and the ML only goes "Pop"

Colorado though does not permit sabots, pellet type powders, or optic during ML season. So about the only difference with in lines is they are more moisture resistant.

I am out there to kill elk not reenact Jeremiah Johnson though. :lol:
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby Lefty » 11 28, 2018 •  [Post 26]

WapitiTalk1 wrote:
Lefty wrote: Walked out with a Traditions Buck Stalker.

Nice! You'll have to let us know how you like it/how it shoots.

Well so far either the shooter or the gun isnt doing too well.

I think its the shooter. Been a long time since I shot open sights except for a shotgun. Some time when its warmer Ill sit down and shoot a bunch. I really want to know how I do with open sights longer ranges 150-175 yards.

Ive seen a number of loads for the 295 gn belted bullets Im useing Triple 7 powder.
Instruction said 100-130 gns of of powder. On line I saw a 150 gn. of T-7. I was looking at the ballistics. Seems like many were complaining about the soft lead blowing apart on impact on the faster loads

Im really new to this and there seems to be a lot of discrepancy on suggested elk loads . What do you guys think!!!

I gotta get the old machine going suppose to be 16 inches of snow where Im headed tomarrow
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby saddlesore » 11 28, 2018 •  [Post 27]

Ya,you don't want to push those power belts fast. I shoot 80 grs of BH209 with a 348 gr. 100gr with a 295 will flatten them like a silver dollar IF it stays together.You need to go to tougher bullets for those bigger powder charges
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby Elkduds » 11 28, 2018 •  [Post 28]

Or don't push them so hard. Try starting @ 90 g of 777. That is my most accurate load w 300 g FPB bullets, in the Optima noted above. One fun thing about frontstuffers, you can adjust your load w every shot. Good luck!

Also, to clean 777, ammonia works well. I've used Windex on a patch between shots on the range, and I carry a baggie of ammonia patches (generic Swiffer pad, cut into 1" squares) in my possibles pocket while hunting. Never heard of ammonia being effective on BH 209, though.
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 11 29, 2018 •  [Post 29]

Good stuff guys, appreciate all the discussion. I’m getting close to selecting s smokepole.
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby saddlesore » 11 30, 2018 •  [Post 30]

Elkduds wrote:Also, to clean 777, ammonia works well. I've used Windex on a patch between shots on the range, and I carry a baggie of ammonia patches (generic Swiffer pad, cut into 1" squares) in my possibles pocket while hunting. Never heard of ammonia being effective on BH 209, though.


I guess from old habits using BP, 777, or Pyrodex,but I still carry wet patches with Windex on them when hunting using BH209.It's enough to cut some of the crud to make a semi clean barrel easier to load.
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby Old school » 11 30, 2018 •  [Post 31]

With my first muzzleloader I used Pyrodex pellets, then years later I got a new one and used the 777 pellets that everyone was talking about. Then when I bought my Accura I got some excellent advice to switch to BH209 loose powder. I did and I have no plans to ever go back to pellets.

It's more consistent, more stable and far easier to clean up.

--Mitch
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 11 30, 2018 •  [Post 32]

Sounds like, in your guy's opinion based on experience, that the pelletized powder charges, although convenient in a sense, are perhaps not the best way to go for accuracy/consistency? I just read the attached http://traditionsmlhunt.blogspot.com/2011/06/pellet-powder-charges-vs-loose-grain.html and it echoes your opinions. I honestly thought just buying the pellets would be easier, and, would produce desired accuracy but perhaps not...........
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 11 30, 2018 •  [Post 33]

OK, I ended up ordering a Traditions Vortek UltraLite.... Pretty nice rig I think that should answer the mail next fall. Thanks to all for the discussion.

Here's the info on the new anti-elk, anti-deer smokepole. Threw a pic in below also.

Traditions Vortek Ultralight .50 Cal Realtree AP/CeraKote Model #R461123 Rifle

The Vortek Ultralight is designed for hunters who demand uncompromised performance from their muzzleloaders. It's Traditions full-featured gun and combines many of the features that hunter needs out in the field. The Vortek Ultralight has a 28" barrel made of Chromoly steel which has long been recognized as the best barrel material for strength and accuracy. The ultralight, tapered, and fluted barrel helps reduce overall gun weight to 6.25 lbs! By reducing the weight of the barrel, the Vortek Ultralight isn't "muzzle-heavy" like other muzzleloader on the market. It's built more like a centerfire and has 50/50 balance.

When it comes to hitting your target, you can depend on the Vortek Ultralight to be extremely accurate. It has been developed with features that maximize accuracy beyond 200 yards. At Tradition we've made safety a priority by incorporating a Dual Safety System, making this gun one of the safest on the market. The Vortek Ultralight is also now available in Reaper Buck camo, found only on muzzleloaders by Tradition!

If the long list of features still isn't enough, the Vortek Ultralight was selected as the 2010 Field & Stream Best of the Best in the muzzleloader category. The experts "were crazy about the Vortek Ultralight" and it came out as the clear winner. We invite you to pick up a Vortek Ultralight and feel the difference.

Accelerator Breech Plug
LT-1 Alloy Frame with PremiumCeraKote Finish
28 Ultralight Chromoly Tapered,
Fluted Barrel with
Premium CeraKote Finish
Ultralight Drop Out Trigger
factory set at four pounds
Hogue Comfort-Grip Overmolding
Quick Relief Recoil Pad
Speed Load System easy loadingand more consistent groups
Dual Safety System
Soft Touch camouflage stocks
Fast action release button
1:28" twist rifling
Extended ambidextrous hammerspur
Williams metal fiber opticsights
Drilled & tapped for scope
Sling swivel studs
209 shotgun primer ignition
Over-travel hammer
Thumbhole stocks available
Solid aluminum ramrod

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Re: Smokepole?

Postby Elkduds » 11 30, 2018 •  [Post 34]

Bet you love it :D
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby Swede » 12 01, 2018 •  [Post 35]

Great looking gun. I suspect you will not be going out with a pair of Davy Crocket britches, frilly jacket, coon skin hat and a powder horn.
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Re: Smokepole?

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 12 01, 2018 •  [Post 36]

Heck ya :D
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Re: Smokepole? *Update*

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 12 07, 2018 •  [Post 37]

Well shoot, the rifle I ordered (available on-line when I ordered it) became unavailable after the order. Oh well, I had to adjust fire and order a different model. Pulled the trigger on a Traditions Vortek Strikerfire Nitrite LDR (long distance rifle; has a 30" barrel). It's a coming in today :D. This model has Traditions new strikerfire system which is a bit different but I have a feeling I'll grow to like it very well. Here's a pic of the new smoke pole and a VID on the critter. On to ordering some gear (bullets, powder, cleaning tools, etc.) soon.

traditions-strikerfire-ldr-nitride-camo-fiber-optic-sights-r599246s.jpg
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Re: Smokepole? *Update*

Postby Elkduds » 12 07, 2018 •  [Post 38]

"My stars, Rhett, that's a long one!" Dialog cut from Gone with the Wind.
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Re: Smokepole? *Update*

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 12 07, 2018 •  [Post 39]

Yep, she’s a long one..figure it’s good out to 450 with the open sights. 8-) Double treats in the mail today. New smokepole and a bugle mag.
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Re: Smokepole? *Update*

Postby >>>---WW----> » 12 08, 2018 •  [Post 40]

I'll bet Davey Crocket would have traded Ole Betsy for that one!
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Re: Smokepole? *Update*

Postby Swede » 12 10, 2018 •  [Post 41]

>>>---WW----> wrote:I'll bet Davey Crocket would have traded Ole Betsy for that one!


As the Aflec goat says: "naa, naa, naa". Ole Betsey is worth a fortune because it is an antique. RJ's gun is still brand new.
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Re: Smokepole? *Update*

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 12 10, 2018 •  [Post 42]

Whatever, my new ML is an instant classic as purdy as it is. Waiting on the front/rear sight screws to come in. Yep, rifle came...sights came...screws were absent from the package :?
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Re: Smokepole? *Update*

Postby wawhitey » 12 11, 2018 •  [Post 43]

Well now you may as well do the late muzzy whitetail hunt in 113! Found an area over there just thick with deer, set up a couple cams in april, going to try to check them here in a week or so. Long soak, curious what kind of bucks ill see.
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Re: Smokepole? *Update*

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 12 11, 2018 •  [Post 44]

wawhitey wrote:Well now you may as well do the late muzzy whitetail hunt in 113! Found an area over there just thick with deer, set up a couple cams in april, going to try to check them here in a week or so. Long soak, curious what kind of bucks ill see.


Hmmmmmmm 8-)
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Re: Smokepole? *Update*

Postby Elkduds » 02 13, 2019 •  [Post 45]

Curious if you made this go boom yet? How do you like it so far?
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Re: Smokepole? *Update*

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 02 13, 2019 •  [Post 46]

Mark, nope. It’s gathering dust. Gonna get the gear soon to get er out.
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Re: Smokepole? *Update*

Postby Elkduds » 02 14, 2019 •  [Post 47]

If you haven't done it, it is far more fun than shooting a bow or modern rifle, IMO.
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Re: Smokepole? *Update*

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 02 14, 2019 •  [Post 48]

Elkduds wrote:If you haven't done it, it is far more fun than shooting a bow or modern rifle, IMO.


I'm really looking forward to it. I have a shopping list of goods I need to get but just haven't done the ordering yet.
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Re: Smokepole? *Update*

Postby Lefty » 02 14, 2019 •  [Post 49]

Duds can you tell us more about peep sights
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Re: Smokepole? *Update*

Postby Elkduds » 02 15, 2019 •  [Post 50]

Lefty wrote:Duds can you tell us more about peep sights

In my post #6 above are pictures of the guns and sights I'll describe here. The old school wood stocked .54 has a Lyman peep sight/brass front bead. This style has a metal disc w a tiny orifice in the center, your eye sits close to this style. Because of the longer distance between rear and front sight, the closeness to the eye, and the tiny peep hole, this is the more precise peep sight (Quigley's bucket shots, for example). What you see is sort of like looking through a scope without magnification, the dark border of the peep disc w the bright center circle of the peep hole. You align the front bead in the center of the peep hole. In mine the front bead takes up half the space seen through the peep. You can learn to adjust for range and windage by having the bead off center in the peep view, for example putting the bead @ the 12 o'clock edge of the peep view for a longer shot (holding high). 200 yard accuracy is a good goal for this style of sight, depending on several variables.

I can no longer see the tiny peep hole clearly, even w glasses. Now I unscrew the disc and use the hole that leaves as an unilluminated ghost ring.

The more modern rifle pictured above has a Ghost Ring sight. Fiber optic bead front sight. Rear sight is the "ghost ring," a fiber optic hoop that makes a fiber optic circle instead of a tiny peep hole. As pictured, the ghost ring sight mounts about where a rear scope base would secure to the barrel, several inches farther from the eye than a peep. The sight picture of the ghost ring is of a glowing ring w a bright dot in the center. Your eye sees the whole target and horizon, w a bright circle around the target, and a bright dot that you center inside the circle. The ghost ring is less precise than the peep because of shorter distance between rear and front sight, longer distance between eye and rear sight. The ghost ring appears larger in relation to the front sight than the peep hole on a peep sight.

I feel comfortable shooting my ghost ring @ elk-size targets @ 125 yards. I am an average rifle shooter, hitting in a 5 inch group @ that range. More like 3 inches @ 100 yards. I shoot 300 gr. full bore bullets over 95 grain powder loads. Past 123, the trajectory drops quickly.

On both of these sights, the front bead covers some of the target while scope cross hairs do not. So some shooters set sights w the target sitting right on top of the front bead.
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Re: Smokepole? *Update*

Postby Elkduds » 02 15, 2019 •  [Post 51]

Elkduds wrote:
Lefty wrote:Duds can you tell us more about peep sights

In my post #6 above are pictures of the guns and sights I'll describe here. The old school wood stocked .54 has a Lyman peep sight/brass front bead. This style has a metal disc w a tiny orifice in the center, your eye sits close to this style. Because of the longer distance between rear and front sight, the closeness to the eye, and the tiny peep hole, this is the more precise peep sight (Quigley's bucket shots, for example). What you see is sort of like looking through a scope without magnification, the dark border of the peep disc w the bright center circle of the peep hole. You align the front bead in the center of the peep hole. In mine the front bead takes up half the space seen through the peep. You can learn to adjust for range and windage by having the bead off center in the peep view, for example putting the bead @ the 12 o'clock edge of the peep view for a longer shot (holding high). 200 yard accuracy is a good goal for this style of sight, depending on several variables.

I can no longer see the tiny peep hole clearly, even w glasses. Now I unscrew the disc and use the hole that leaves as an unilluminated ghost ring.

The more modern rifle pictured above has a Ghost Ring sight. Fiber optic bead front sight. Rear sight is the "ghost ring," a fiber optic hoop that makes a fiber optic circle instead of a tiny peep hole. As pictured, the ghost ring sight mounts about where a rear scope base would secure to the barrel, several inches farther from the eye than a peep. The sight picture of the ghost ring is of a glowing ring w a bright dot in the center. Your eye sees the whole target and horizon, w a bright circle around the target, and a bright dot that you center inside the circle. The ghost ring is less precise than the peep because of shorter distance between rear and front sight, longer distance between eye and rear sight. The ghost ring appears larger in relation to the front sight than the peep hole on a peep sight.

I feel comfortable shooting my ghost ring @ elk-size targets @ 125 yards. I am an average rifle shooter, hitting in a 5 inch group @ that range w both these guns.. More like 3 inches @ 100 yards. I shoot 300 gr. full bore bullets over 95 grain powder loads, complying w Colorado's regulations. Past 125, the trajectory of these loads drops quickly.

On both of these sights, the front bead covers some of the target while scope cross hairs do not. So some shooters set sights w the target sitting right on top of the front bead.


Williams makes the largest assortment of ghost ring sights, and quality is good. A Lyman peep sight is more advanced and expensive.
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