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Rifle

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Rifle

Postby Kessler10 » 03 06, 2020 •  [Post 1]

I am in the market for a new rifle. I do not do much rifle hunting but now that my oldest boy is getting older I am starting to take him rifle hunting. He is 9 years old and has been archery hunting with me (as spectator) for a couple years. given the likelihood of success increases with rifle I started to take him rifle hunting more.
If I am not successful with my bow for deer/elk I will pick up the rifle to fill the freezer. I have always shot a Weatherby .270 Short Mag. Nothing to crazy but enough to put down an elk. And its served me well.

I would like to be deadly out to 350-400 yards, which currently is a bit of a stretch for my current rifle I feel like. I really am not sure where to start to buy a new rifle. Thoughts or direction to get started?
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Re: Rifle

Postby 7mmfan » 03 06, 2020 •  [Post 2]

I would have complete confidence shooting an elk with a quality 150 gr bullet at 400 yards out of a 270 WSM. They have basically 1800 fp of energy at 400 yards which will kill any big game animal in North America. It might not drop him right in his tracks, but will for sure kill them.

If you are dead set on buying a new rifle (which is fine :D ) is this going to be an elk rifle only? Is it going to be just for you, or do you plan on letting your boy use it when he starts hunting?
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Re: Rifle

Postby Kessler10 » 03 06, 2020 •  [Post 3]

I was kind of thinking i would give my 270 to my boy. I use my rifle more for deer than elk I would say. but both
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Re: Rifle

Postby 7mmfan » 03 06, 2020 •  [Post 4]

The 270 would be a good rifle for him. Not sure if you reload, but you can load some very deadly reduced recoil loads for a young hunter, may even be able to buy them, I know you can for a 270 Win.

If you are using your rifle more for deer than elk, that's where I would start. Many cartridges will overlap enough to be viable. There is the mindset that you buy big to cover all bases, but I don't necessarily agree with that. I buy calibers that I will enjoy shooting and shoot well. For me, that rules out pretty much 300 anything or larger. That may not apply to you though. A 7mm Rem mag will give you ample range and knockdown power without being near as punishing as a 300 win mag or 300 WSM.

The next question is, do you reload or buy factory ammo? Factory ammo selection and availability is a major consideration.
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Re: Rifle

Postby Swede » 03 06, 2020 •  [Post 5]

I would go with a 30-06. One point of disclaimer here is in order. I do not have one because they are just too versatile. If you buy one of those darn things, you have no reason to go buy another big game rifle.
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Re: Rifle

Postby 7mmfan » 03 06, 2020 •  [Post 6]

30.06 is so vanilla Swede. It's BORING. :lol: And it is also a great round and highly versatile like you said. However, if I was buying a rifle with the intention of consistently shooting 350-400 yards, I'd be looking at faster/flatter trajectory round. For me, that falls in the .284 realm. 7mm Rem Mag seems to fit the bill best for something that has more knockdown power but similar trajectory to the 270. There is a plethora of factory ammo available from basic to premium and in all shapes and sizes.

There's also the new Nosler rounds, like the 28 Nosler. Fantastic ballistics, but $$$ and proprietary ammo selection.

If I was inclined to go bigger, I'd look at hard at the 300 WSM or 300 Win Mag. Again, purely for the ballistics and 400 yard energy.
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Re: Rifle

Postby saddlesore » 03 06, 2020 •  [Post 7]

Sounds like you are looking more for a rifle for your son. If so,I would be look in at a 7-08,or something 1n a .264 Caliber, 260 rem,etc..The keep the .270 for when he gets older. The .270 with 150 gr Nosler Partition bullets or similar will do very well on elk.
Then find something in a youth stock for him.Staring a young hunter with a firearm with a significant recoil is the best way to sour them on hunting.

There isn't any big game in the lower 48 that requires a magnum round, no matter what anyone says.I did get magnumitus for a few years,but sent them down the road. All they do is burn more powder. All my elk since then have been killed with an.06, .308 ,44 mag, 50 cal muzzle loader, or 45-70. The .308 .06, .270,.280,25-06, etc. will kill elk just as dead past 400 yards as the magnum. The fact is most elk are killed within150 yards.

As for brand, if budget is a concern, don't pass up some of the Savages.For years now they have been the most accurate off the shelf rifle sold.Some of the package deals that come with a scope are bit clunky,but if you go that way,throw the scope away an put some better glass on it.
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Re: Rifle

Postby 7mmfan » 03 06, 2020 •  [Post 8]

I don't disagree with saddlesore. Your 270 is perfectly adequate for elk. If you are comfortable with the rifle and shoot it well, I'd be looking for a rifle for your boy. 7mm-08 is a great suggestion.
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Re: Rifle

Postby Trumkin the Dwarf » 03 07, 2020 •  [Post 9]

Kessler10 wrote:I was kind of thinking i would give my 270 to my boy. I use my rifle more for deer than elk I would say. but both


So, you want a new deer rifle for you? Or a new elk rifle?

For elk it's hard to go wrong with one of the big .30's if you can stand the recoil. While I shoot a 30-06AI, which is way cooler than the regular 06. I have a major soft spot for the .300H&H because that's what my grandpa shoots. 180gr. 30 cal ttsx at 3100 fps is bad medicine! Another option is the 300 Win mag (yuck, just get an 06 already). :mrgreen: But there's also the .338 which is what my dad uses, or the .375H&H if you want a super thumper that can go to Africa.

Also, I will say this. For the amount of energy the big 30's put out, you might as well get some fancy walnut and blueing (Winchester M70, Kimber SuperAmerica, or something like that). You're gonna need the weight for recoil absorption anyways.
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Re: Rifle

Postby wawhitey » 03 07, 2020 •  [Post 10]

If my scoped rifles disappeared today and i had to start over, id get one of these in .308, slap a suppressor on it, call it good.

https://www.savagearms.com/content?p=fi ... ry&s=57577
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Re: Rifle

Postby >>>---WW----> » 03 08, 2020 •  [Post 11]

Nine years old ? How big is he ? That's mighty young and most guns will have too big of a stock to fit him. Another thing to consider, would he even be legally old enough to hunt elk in some of the western states ?

I started my daughter out with a 30/06 loaded down to a manageable recoil for her. As she grew older, we increased the powder charge. The 06 grew up with her.
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Re: Rifle

Postby Swede » 03 08, 2020 •  [Post 12]

wawhitey wrote:"If my scoped rifles disappeared today and i had to start over, id get one of these in .308, slap a suppressor on it, call it good."


The 308W is my favorite rifle caliber and all I need for my rifle hunting. I recommender the 30-06 because the stated range was 350-400 yards, and I agree completely with what WW wrote. The 300 Magnums hit harder that either the 308W or 30-06, and then you can go on to the 460 Weatherby. I would want nothing bigger than the 06. It is all anyone that is a practiced shooter needs.
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Re: Rifle

Postby Swede » 03 08, 2020 •  [Post 13]

Whitey: Why do you want a suppressor on your guns? I just ordered a 308W barrel and they asked if I wanted it threaded on the end. I said "no" as I saw no need for hunting.
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Re: Rifle

Postby wawhitey » 03 08, 2020 •  [Post 14]

Reduces recoil and noise, whats not to like about that? Waiting on a 5.56 suppressor now. Sent in the paperwork on feb 5th, the atf charged my card feb 24th. Now just waiting on the slowpoke federales to approve me to go pick it up. And having one made for my .444 marlin and .450 bushmaster. A
444 marlin with a 16" barrel and a muzzle brake is loud. Figure a suppressor will make it much more civilized. A guy has no time to put earplugs in when hes calling predators in thick cover. I got a can for my .22wmr and its awesome. Did i need a suppressor for it? Not really. But i dont really worry about the "need" thing too much. Wouldnt have a lot of things if need was a requirement.
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Re: Rifle

Postby Indian Summer » 03 09, 2020 •  [Post 15]

Before I bought my Remington.300 Ultra Mag I had a 7mm Remington Magnum. I’ve killed deer elk and caribou with it. I’d still be using it for elk if I didn’t want a synthetic stock and stainless barrel and action to abuse. That’d be my suggestion. Make yourself a chart, look up the ballistics on different rounds to compare them.
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Re: Rifle

Postby Swede » 03 09, 2020 •  [Post 16]

Indian Summer wrote:Make yourself a chart, look up the ballistics on different rounds to compare them.


Ballistic tables only show you the ballistics of different rounds shot from different guns and bullets, and not necessarily your gun or even your bullet. I have never found the ballistics I get on a chronograph are what the powder and bullet manufacturers claimed they get. It is not even close. I have a half dozen reloading books with all of that information. It is all available on-line now too.
How could I thumb through my books and select the correct caliber and load for elk? I have a 338 WM. Is it better than a 308W? They both kill elk. I don't like shooting the 338WM, so I am never practiced on it, but my charts don't speak to that.
I would rather buy a car based on just a positive magazine article than deciding on a gun from a ballistics chart. I read the magazines, but never buy automobiles just because some writer says it is "best".
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Re: Rifle

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 03 10, 2020 •  [Post 17]

Ballistics, shushmistics, get a .308. All those Army snipers can’t be wrong ;). I don’t own one, but am a fan of the .300 MAG.
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Re: Rifle

Postby Indian Summer » 03 11, 2020 •  [Post 18]

Swede wrote:
Indian Summer wrote:Make yourself a chart, look up the ballistics on different rounds to compare them.


Ballistic tables only show you the ballistics of different rounds shot from different guns and bullets, and not necessarily your gun or even your bullet. I have never found the ballistics I get on a chronograph are what the powder and bullet manufacturers claimed they get. It is not even close. I have a half dozen reloading books with all of that information. It is all available on-line now too.
How could I thumb through my books and select the correct caliber and load for elk? I have a 338 WM. Is it better than a 308W? They both kill elk. I don't like shooting the 338WM, so I am never practiced on it, but my charts don't speak to that.
I would rather buy a car based on just a positive magazine article than deciding on a gun from a ballistics chart. I read the magazines, but never buy automobiles just because some writer says it is "best".

It’s a good starting point. Better than buying an old Pennsylvania deer gun like a 30-.06 and trying to squeeze all you can out of it. That would be eliminated by comparing numbers with a 7 mag or .300 Win Mag. It’ll kill an elk I guess but a can also use a butter knife for a screwdriver. Ok Swede your turn... lol :D
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Re: Rifle

Postby saddlesore » 03 11, 2020 •  [Post 19]

I have at least 30 elk killed with an .06. Another 20 or so with .308's, 44 mags, 45-70, 30-30, 50 cal muzzle loader. Only two or three with a 7mag.Those two or three didn't die any faster or deader than all the others.What is on the head stamp of a a cartridge has very little to do with it's capabilities of killing elk.
As for PA deer rifles, I'd venture to say that the 30-30 has killed more than it's fair share of deer in PA.
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Re: Rifle

Postby Swede » 03 11, 2020 •  [Post 20]

I think picking a rifle needs to be based on your game, hunting area and hunting style. Indian Joe hunts elk in open country and shoots them up to three miles away. That is totally different than the guy that on a stretch may go out to 400 yards. There is no doubt that the big mags have their place, but I think they are unnecessary in some areas. If you are not going to shoot much because of the punishment they inflict on you, or because they cost too much to shoot, you could be better off using more common calibers. I think the 30-06 is a good all around cartridge, but when I start placing a 100 power scope on a gun to shoot three miles, it will be on a big mag for sure. :lol:
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Re: Rifle

Postby Indian Summer » 03 11, 2020 •  [Post 21]

A 7mm Rem Mag isn’t a “big”mag. 400 yards is no slam dunk. If you want that capability you better have something that doesn’t fling bullets at an arc like a rainbow. If you do you damn sure better know the exact range to the yard. We talk about shot placement and there are different opinions. But the one thing I think we agree on is the one with the most margin for error is best. At longer ranges a flatter trajectory means more margin for error when it comes to range. That means less chance of wounding elk.

You don’t need a gun like mine to shoot 400 yards. But I wouldn’t be using an 06 for that range... given the choice to shop for a good tool for that job.

By the way... those Pa deer are shot at under 100 yards and those elk at under 200. That’s not related to the original question. Within it’s capabilities, which are much better for reloaders, it’s a great gun though.
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Re: Rifle

Postby Swede » 03 11, 2020 •  [Post 22]

The difference between a 7mm shooting 3,000 fps muzzle velocity with 154 gr spire point bullets and a 375 shooting 3,000 fps muzzle velocity with 270 gr round nose bullets amounts to about 7 inches more drop at 400 yards. The odd thing is that the 7mm has less drop. Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading. At the 2,900 fps muzzle velocity the 30-06 with a 165 gr. spire point drops 3 inch more than the 7mm.
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Re: Rifle

Postby saddlesore » 03 12, 2020 •  [Post 23]

I think what happens a lot is people buy one gun or cartridge and go out and kill elk with it. After 10-15 kills they get the feeling that particular gun and cartridge is the perfection and no other cartridge will work.When in fact, there are probably 15-20 other ones that will do the same job with the same results. It isn't until you go out and kill a significant number of big game animals with a wide variation of firearms and cartridges that you can come to a reliable conclusion of what works and don't work. (BTW, I have done that). It is like the age old argument of what bullet is best . We hear bullet failure all the time when most of the time the culprit is poor bullet placement. Same applies to cartridge selection. A gut shot elk with a 300Mag or .416 Rigby yields the same as a gut shot elk with a .243. With either done correctly, the dead elk is the results. In the real world bullet drop of 10 inches at 500 yards has no relevance to one that only drops 7". You still have to account for it. Take a heavy bullet vs a light bullet in the same caliber/cartridge,the lighter bullet will have a flatter trajectory, but will drain off velocity and energy much faster than the the heavier bullet. The heavier bullet might take tad longer to get there,but will have more "umph" when it does. At long distances, there are a lot more variables than what bullet and what velocity it is launch at. Most of them are what is attached to the trigger.

BTW,years ago ,I hunted with a gent that shot a std .270.No one even knew what a .270 short mag was. His rifle was old Remington pump.He consistently killed elk at 400-500 yards with that rifle using Remingtion 130 gr Cor Locks. Another old rancher I knew had more elk horns nailed to his barn than most anyone would ever kill. He did it all with a Win 94 in 30-30.

A 270 short mag loaded with 150 gr Nolser Partitions will kill any elk as far as anyone has the capability to shoot
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Re: Rifle

Postby Kessler10 » 03 23, 2020 •  [Post 24]

thanks everyone.

I am going to keep my 270 WSM and put some new glass on it. My son is not old enough to shoot a rifle yet, I was just planing ahead. Was trying to understand if my 270WSM is sufficient for how I hunt and it sounds like yes it is. So the next gun I buy would be specific for my boy in a few years.
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Re: Rifle

Postby Swede » 03 23, 2020 •  [Post 25]

That sounds like an excellent plan Kess. A new gun from dad is something your son will always remember and cherish.
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