Elk Hunting Arrow for Low Poundage Bow?

[mtnmutt]

I need help building my elk hunting arrow.

Last year, I followed Paul's Penetration testing where he found the best balance for speed and penetration was to have an arrow 6.5 to 7 grains per pound of draw wt. However, this was for compound bows 60# and up. I currently shoot 50#.

Now that I am paying more attention, Paul noted this on another thread viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1623
"The same rule of thumb applies to longbows & recurves, the figures here are 9grains to 11 grains per pound of draw wt. for ultimate penetration. The more blades & larger the broadhead the heavier your arrow should be on the scale to achieve best penetration."

I am very limited by my 24DL/50DW. My bow goes to 55#, but I injured my right shoulder in January and I am not sure I can go higher this year. In reality, it is my short DL that kills my fps and KE. I have a Matthews Jewel. There may be faster bows, but I can't buy a new bow this year.

I have never hit an elk. My current arrow is
26" Easton Bloodline 400 - bow would not tune with the 500 spine, so please, no debate on my spine, it is what it is.
with 100 grain Montec CS
on a grain scale it is 363 grains
7.26 gpi
13.5% FOC

Out in the woods, I have set my max broadside shot to 25 yards and slight quartering away at 20 yards. I may have to rethink this and say max shot is 20 yards. I practice out to 40 yards. I have only had one shot opportunity and that was at 16 yards. High vital broadside shot and the Bull ducked my arrow. I had a slower bow at the time and it was loud.

I used the ot-2 pinwheel software and tried this as a possible choice
25" Easton Axis N-Fused 400 (do not care for FMJ) - 9.0 gpi
7" wrap 6-8 grains - I have not weighed them
Blazer vanes total 18 grains
Nock 9 grains
BAR4 3 grains
HIT insert 16 grains
125 grain Magnus Stinger - an internet search turn this up as a good low poundage broadhead, but may have low blood trail
402 grain by the OT-2 software - actual grain scale measurements are usually higher by 7-10 grains
14.9% FOC
8.04 gpi

The only other thing I can think of is a heavier insert or footers. Footers would give me flexibility to try different weights.

Any thoughts? Should I try to get >15% FOC and 9 gpi or is the above arrow ok?

I don't have bunches of money to throw at arrows, but I could probably build 2 sets of 6 arrows each to try them out. If the bow shop allowed it, maybe I could try 4 sets of 3 arrows each. I only know how to fletch arrows. I don't have the means to build my own arrows.

When the shot goes off, I need to know that I did my very best at building the correct arrow.

I appreciate everyone's input.

[buglmin]

How are the arrows flying? Are the cutting good holes through paper? How are they grouping? The most important penetration robbing issue is poor arrow flyte. Tune for perfect arrow flyte and form...
I have good friend in Grand Junction with a short 26" draw, and he shoots a Jewel...400 grain carbon arrows with no issues with penetration. My ex wife used to kill elk with a 48# Conquest Pro and 425 grain GT's...You shouldnt have no issues, youre overthinking the whole heavier arrow better thing...You'll be fine...

[mtnmutt]

buglmin,
Thank you!

My current arrows (363 grain Bloodlines) are tuned to my bow. I could not get my old GT 500 spine to tune with the new Jewel. My bow tech worked with me last June using shop arrows and we came to the conclusion that the bow just needed to go to 400 spine and viola, the bow tuned.

I can only group to grapefruit size at 30 yards, but that is due to the shooter's fault and not the bow. I can stack in 1-3" circle at 20 yards if I am doing everything right. My arrow drops a lot after 30 yards because of low fps, but I can hit the white circle at 40 yards. 50 yards is very challenging, but I did hit a caribou's 8 ring during a 3D shoot at 50 yards.

I desperately need to do more blind bail shooting. I do it in my basement at least once a week, but not enough. My form is improving, but not the release yet.

You make very good points.

[ElkNut1]

OK, first off FMJ's are great arrows. (grin) Do not be concerned with your FOC, it will work itself out automatically with your total arrow wt. At 50lb draw wt & short draw length your .400 spine arrows are perfect. Do not worry about comparing a longbow/recurve to your compound as they are not the same speeds & the limbs load differently. Do your best to finish your total arrow wt. in the 400grn arena. So 8grns per pound of draw wt would be good for you or something within 15 grains on either side of the 400grn mark. One way to calculate your potential arrow wt. minus broadhead wt is to go by a rule of thumb that your 3-fletchings, insert & string nock will come in at aprox 45grains no matter the arrow chosen. Just find out your arrows wt. it generally will have specs that read 7.3 gpi or 8.5gpi ? You get the idea. Calculate that grain wt with arrow length & add your 45grains plus broadhead wt.

If using magnus stingers go with the buzzcuts with bleeders, they are a great head & will offer more blood than the 2-blade style. An aprox 400grn arrow with those heads will be a great elk killer!

ElkNut1

[cnelk]

mtnmutt

You can install trimmer line inside the shaft to add weight to the entire arrow without affecting spine.
Just remove the nock, slide it down to the insert, cut it off at the top end of the arrow and replace the nock

A length of trimmer line in my arrows add ~40grns of weight.

The downside is the line tends to rattle in the shaft, but not too bad.
It hasnt scared any elk for me yet

[mtnmutt]

Thank you everyone.

In May, when I have more time, I will buy new arrows to try out. I will go for around a 400 grain arrow (+/- 15 grains) and see how they do with my bow. If I get in the bow shop before everyone gets their CO draw results, they won't be as busy and backlogged with bow tuning.

Brad,
You like to invent weird stuff. Keep it up. I did tell you about my arrow ducking elk and now you want my arrow to rattle?

[buglmin]

FMJ's are great shafts, been shooting them since 2007, but they are expensive. And for the money, there are a lil better shafts out there. Look into the Bone Collecter MX shafts, or the Easton Axis shafts...pick up a dozen arrows for bout $90.00 bucks compared to over 120.00 for FMJ's, and you wont notice the difference.
Adding 40 grains to your arrow weight wont give you nothing that youll notice, except loss in arrow speed. It wont give you but a fraction maybe, but arrow speed will be about 4 fps...
The way to add weight to any shaft is to buy one in camo. The difference between a black shaft and a camo shaft is about 2 gpi, so on a 27" arrow, you'll gain bout 47 grains in added arrow weight.

[ST52V]

You got lots of good advice!! If you want some good advice on form and such check out John dudleys web sight. He has some very good articles on back tension . Use some of that with your blind bale training and you'll shoot awesome. There is a release that is made to add up to 3 inches to your draw length. I think it called the equalizer. I think a female hunter on rokslide used it inorder to hunt africa. Without it she would not of had enough ke. Robin

[ST52V]

Check with your shop and see what they think about acc's in the 440's. I have a dozen of them uncut. I would sell them for $100. Thats what I paid for them.

[Swede]

Mtnmutt, I think you are getting plenty of great advise on arrows, so I will not add to that, but I have the perception that you are a little too restrictive on the distance you would shoot an elk. I read with interest your posts on the forum and look forward to seeing some pictures of you with your first bull, or cow for that matter. The critical thing on killing elk is shot placement. With a good super sharp broadhead you should consistently make a clean kill out to 30 yards with your gear. I applaud anyone who knows their limits and does not exceed them, so don't think I am trying to talk you into going beyond what you know you are capable of handling. I limit myself to 40 yards even under the most ideal conditions, but I don't care if the elk is broadside or quartering away. The main thing for me to have is a clear shot at a standing animal. My Ideal conditions consist of being in the tree stand, with a clear unobstructed view of a standing animal that is broadside or slightly quartering away, and little wind. Uneven ground, side slope and brush limit my distance some, and maybe a lot.

[>>>---WW---->]

Don't try to over think things. If they fly straight and you get a good walk back tune and you hit where you are aiming, that's plenty good. Another thing you might want to consider if you are a bowhunter is that a heavier arrow makes for a quieter bow.

[mtnmutt]

I truly appreciate everyone taking the time to give me advice.

buglmin: I did know that about FMJ plain/camo, but I forgot to check Axis N-Fused. Thanks for bringing it up. I will play around with the camo numbers.

ST52V: I will check out that site. My form started to improve when I started doing core exercises a couple weeks ago. I had only been doing running, biking, swimming, hiking and archery. My core was in bad shape. I need it especially for sitting/kneeling shots which is how I setup in the woods and for some 3D.

Last year, I took 2 private lessons from an archery coach. I don't practice enough with the string/release (no bow) which helps with everything.

Around January 1st, I injured my right shoulder (bow arm). The pain and loss of range of motion has caused issues for 2 months, plus the bicep and tricep stay contracted. I still have about 25% of the pain, but it goes away if I warm up my arm/shoulder. I see an orthopedic in mid-April. Brad (cnelk) gave me hope that I may not need surgery on it. However, I cannot move my arm behind my back or use it like I used to. Freestyle swimming is almost impossible. I may need PT and maybe that will help with my form.

I had also heard about lady hunters using that 3" extended release. I believe it is best for now that I don't mess with my release setup and maximize making what I have work every time. I believe a well placed shot at up to 25 yards will get an elk on the ground with my setup.

Thanks for the offer on arrows, but I am going to stick with 400 spine arrows because I know that tunes with my bow.

Swede: Great points. In my terrain, it is unlikely I get a clear shot to 25 yards due to branches. However, armed with Paul's info on cold calling locations/pictures, my summer scouting will include looking for both ambush and cold calling locations. I now have a range finder and will see what the max distance is likely at these locations. I tend to misjudge distance for >30 yards when there is a hill involved. I do well on flats.

For my one shot opportunity on opening morning of my 1st season, it is obvious that I was naive on shot placement. I aimed high on vitals (still double lung) and the elk ducked my loud arrow. If 1) I had practiced on 3D and 2) I knew to aim for heart and lung, I would have had elk meat on my 1st day as a hunter. I now practice 3D in summer twice a week to hit the heart and lung both broadside and quartering away while standing and sitting/kneeling.

In late April or May, I am going to try Axis N-Fused. I had tried FMJ 500 when I first bought the bow a year ago and have since sold them. They did not seem right, but I was new to LH (I started 4 yrs ago RH, but I am LED) and those arrows were 500 spine. The bow shop I used to buy the bow and FMJs did not care to tune the bow after they had my money. I have since switched to a local shop that does care about making sure a bow tunes. There were a lot of things that needed fixing on that brand new bow.

I now have Easton Bloodlines and I think they are pretty good, but I want to see if the heavier Axis N-Fused lowers the noise. As WW has stated, a heavier arrow may reduce the noise.

Since practicing at longer distances (>25 yards) and doing 3D shoots, I have managed to lose and break 6 out of 12 of my Bloodlines in 6 months. It took me 2 years to break 3 of my old GTs with my old Martin Leopard and 2 of those were a 10 yard robinhood. At this rate, I will need new arrows again in 6-12 months. I hope I lose one to an elk.

Hope everyone enjoyed their Easter and dodged any April Fool's Day jokes.

[buglmin]

Easton Axis are a tough shaft, I used to shoot the Beman MX's and would beat the hell out of them. lol...as far as judging range, learn what 20 yards is, guess at it, then use your rangefinder to check. Once you get the 20 yards down, use that to figure out your yardage...and FYI, most 3D targets, are never set at 20 yards, 30 yards, 40 yards...One my tourament bow, my pins are set for 25, 35, 45, 55, 65...for a shot from 20 yards to 28 yards, my 25 yards pin works...on 29 yards to 37 yards, I use my 35 yard pin...Dont laugh, it works.

[Swede]

Mtnmutt, when I see the first pictures of you with your elk I will just say; "you did all right; for a gurl." LOL

[mtnmutt]

buglmin: Great Advice again!

Starting 3 years ago, I practiced estimating distance on walks (mostly flat). I know how many of my paces equals 10 yards. I am good up to 40 yards at estimating on flats. Now, I started taking the rangefinder when hiking a bluff, so I can practice on hills.

My biggest problem is estimating this: flat out to 15-20 yards followed by a slight hill where the animal is setup another 5-15 yards. The animal is usually the size of a boar and is between 25-35 yards away. The animal is black or all white (goat). I don't have a problem with tan animals. For some weird reason, I do well for 40 to 50 yards, but those are larger targets then boars or goats.

My arrow trajectory is very pronounced after 25 yards. If I guess 35 yards on a little boar and it is actually 30 yards, I either hit the spine or the arrow goes over his back.

I have not measured my POI from 30 to 35 yards, but I can tell it is >6 inches. I don't think going from 363 grain arrow to 400 grains will hurt. I am not going to sweat it. As long as the bow tunes to the arrow and they fly well, I am good. I am not spending my summer trying out arrows. I need to just practice.

Swede: Thank you! My family (no hunters, but not against hunting) sorta thinks I am crazy. My first elk will be in honor of my step-father who died in March 2012 after a 3 year battle with cancer. For my first 2 seasons, he was still alive. Each September, he would always answer the phone with: "Did ya get one?" He was proud of me, so I want to honor his support for me. Sam was a good ole boy from the hills of WV. He was a decorated WWII vet who helped liberate the South Pacific islands and was shot twice. He was interned in Arlington National Cemetery on October 12, 2012. When I get an elk and get back to DC, I will save a piece of elk hide or ivory tooth to bury at his grave site. That is, if the soldiers aren't looking while I do it.