Arrow Selection

[JGH]

After thinking over the "Carbon vs Aluminum" thread, I think I've settled on carbon.

But now I need some suggestions on specifics. I hear we are headed for the big city (Ft. Collins) next week and I might as well take advantage of the trip to pick up some new sticks.

Bow: Mathews eZ7
weight: Currently 60, shooting FMJ 400s, but I'd like to move it up to 70# or nearly so.
broadhead: Vipertricks 125gr
length: 29"
application: "all-around" ... this year, though, elk is main thought. Likely not pronghorn.

Thoughts?

[ElkNut1]

John, if your draw length is 29" does this mean you are shooting roughly 28" arrows? If so go to the .340 spine & you'll be good to go! The FMJ arrows are a very good choice, of course there are many others that will work well too. Spine is more important to draw length & bow poundage than arrow brand! Viper Trick heads are great!

ElkNut1

[buglmin]

Why the big jump in draw weight? Is 70 pounds really necessary? A lot of guys chasing elk do so with bows in the mid 60's anymore. Sorry, but I see no need for 70# when 65# will be as good, but without the strain on the shoulders, and just easier to draw in cold or ackward positions...
At 60#, you were over spined with the 400's...why not crank your bow up and see how your arrows fly? Thats the way most guys do it instead of ordering new arrows without knowing...I shoot .500 spine shafts out of my 64# Darton and 100 grain heads...

[eltaco]

Buglmin, what is your DL? A 500 spine arrow is way light for a 64# bow if you're around 29" DL.

I'm also curious about the 10# jump in DW. 10# is a lot and if you have been shooting 60# for some time I'd certainly shoot at 70# for a bit to make sure it's not too big of a.jump for you. That said, if I could shoot 70# comfortably I wouldn't go down to 65# just because. Shoot what you're comfortable with, the extra energy is useful but not worth it if you strain to achieve it.

That all said, I would guess a long 300 or short 340. Really depends on how much room your rest has. I would have to run the numbers to find a starting point.

[JJ Overkill]

Why the big jump in draw weight? Is 70 pounds really necessary? A lot of guys chasing elk do so with bows in the mid 60's anymore. Sorry, but I see no need for 70# when 65# will be as good, but without the strain on the shoulders, and just easier to draw in cold or ackward positions...
At 60#, you were over spined with the 400's...why not crank your bow up and see how your arrows fly? Thats the way most guys do it instead of ordering new arrows without knowing...I shoot .500 spine shafts out of my 64# Darton and 100 grain heads...

im just wondering, but your shooting a 500 spine arrow with a 64# bow.?. whats your draw length? id have to say you are way underspined. my sons shooting a pse evo 28" draw at 55lbs. he tuned with a 400 spine and 100gr head. i bumped him up to a 150gr head and had to move his spjne up to a 350 spine. his arrows are 27 1/4" another example is my wifes pse chaos one 25" dl 27" arrow 500spine 50lb draw. her arrows tune fine with a 100gr head went up to a 125gr head and weak spine appeared while paper tuning.

as for the ops? i would recommend a 350 spine if you make the jump to 70# with a 125gr head youll be good to go.

[buglmin]

My arrow are 28 1/4" long, and bare shafts tune perfect with broadheads.I always shoot two bare shafts before I shoot any arrows... My bowstring, bowsite and arrow are all perfectly aligned with the center of the bow.
It really sounds like you are having form issues to need a shaft that stiff to fly from that poundage of bow. Either a lot of torqueing or form. And yessir, Im shooting my Darton at over 280 fps, with 27 1/2" draw modules...
And from my 57# recurves, I shoot a .500 spine shaft 30 3/8" with 100 grain broadheads. Bare shafts tune perfect, and lightted nocks and slo mo cameras show no fishtailing with broadheads...its all about form and release!!

[eltaco]

My arrow are 28 1/4" long, and bare shafts tune perfect with broadheads.I always shoot two bare shafts before I shoot any arrows... My bowstring, bowsite and arrow are all perfectly aligned with the center of the bow.
It really sounds like you are having form issues to need a shaft that stiff to fly from that poundage of bow. Either a lot of torqueing or form. And yessir, Im shooting my Darton at over 280 fps, with 27 1/2" draw modules...
And from my 57# recurves, I shoot a .500 spine shaft 30 3/8" with 100 grain broadheads. Bare shafts tune perfect, and lightted nocks and slo mo cameras show no fishtailing with broadheads...its all about form and release!!

I don't know how you jumped to form issues just because we're shooting different spines...

I've honestly never read a post from anyone shooting 64# and a 500 spine arrow. That is extremely underspined and there's not an Arrow chart or spine program that would disagree with me on that. I'd love to put your bow thru a high speed video camera to show you, too. I'm truly concerned for you putting an arrow thru your hand with that spine. I also believe you'd see a dramatic improvement in Arrow flight at 60-100yds with a 340.

[JGH]

Thanks for the replies ... some explanations:

I was getting such an "under-spined" pattern on broadhead testing last year that I had to turn the bow all the way down. It shoots fine now, and I could stay where I'm at.

But ... a few things:

My current arrows are (gasp) "off the shelf, pre-fletched" and have no offset to the fletching.

I'd like to play with the bow some more adjusting the draw-weight up to 70 pounds if needed. I'm not dead-set on cranking it up to 70 just because that's a bigger number. I just don't have any room to work with my current arrows.

But to experiment at all with weight, and to get properly-fletched arrows, I'm going to have to get a stiffer spined arrow.

So what brands of carbons are people happy (or not happy) with?

Even though there are lots of technical points to discuss, I get the idea that the difference between the entry-level arrows and top-end arrows may not be all that much.

We have the same discussion with bullets for reloading. A Barnes TSX looks great on paper until you realized that Remington Core-lokts would work fine for my type of hunting!

[ironhead22]

I've shot Easton, Carbon Express, PSE and Gold Tip and by far the Gold Tips have by far given me the best results of all of them. Weight and straightness throughout a dozen arrows is true. They are unbelievably tough. Id have a hard time not recommending them to anyone.

[ElkNut1]

John, I know you are in search of a good arrow so your monies are well spent & yes there are many good ones out there, actually in hunting arrows there really is no junk! Spine it correctly with your bow being shot & no arrow will disintegrate on impact. (grin) Just think of all the animals that are taken with cedar shafts & trad gear & yet a carbon arrow is still as tough or tougher than most of them. Go with any top brand like Carbon Express, Gold Tip, Easton, Victory, etc.

My personal opinion for great all around hunting & 3d arrows are Eastons, they appear after lots of brutal testing to hold up very well. I like the skinny Axis N-Fused shafts a lot, they're tough as nails, but I also like the Easton FMJ arrows & will be shooting those this year in 340 spine at 65# 27-1/2" draw. I've taken elk with both & both are superior shafts. The nice thing about FMJ arrows is they are one hand pulls out of 3D targets, that is really nice!

Too, take into consideration that you can be under-spined on the too weak of arrow choice if you creep up towards 70# (like a 400 at your wt & length) but you cannot be over-spined. Yes, this is correct, you can shoot a 340 or .300 spine arrow out of your setup no problem.It's all in the tuning. You cannot tune an under spined arrow period no matter what but you can tune a stiff arrow with standard 100grn or 125grn heads. To shoot a stiff arrow you will normally move your rest a hair closer to the riser in your tuning efforts but you can tune .300 spine arrows to a 50# bow or an 80# bow. Consider the 340 spine since you have plans of increasing draw wt. & they will still tune to your present draw wt. -- The thing too is to have an idea of your total arrow wt in mind, this will help you to decide on which arrow is best for you as they all can have a different grain per inch wt. For you consider a total arrow wt of 425grn to 450grn (includes broadhead wt.) This will work for you now & if you decide to up your draw wt in the future.

As a rule of thumb, 3 blazer fletchings, nock & insert weigh 47 grains, if using a 125grn Viper Trick = 172grn this means you are looking for an arrow shaft that weighs in the 250grn to 280grn weight class, divide the lesser & higher # by 28" arrow that you may shoot & this comes to an arrow gpi of 8.9 gpi to 10 gpi. That's a good leeway to consider. Any quality arrow will have a gpi (grains per inch) on the arrow itself or on the box. If you desire a different total wt. arrow do the math! (grin)

ElkNut1

[JGH]

Thanks, everyone ... very helpful answers.

Looks like I came to the right place.

[>>>---WW---->]

340s sounds like what you need. And unless you are a target shooter that demands the very best and highest price to make you better, you will do just fine for hunting with something like Beman ICS Hunters or GoldTips in the same price range.

Isn't there still that archery shop on the Snowy Range Road there in Larami? I haven't been up that way in a long time. But I remember it being there. Maybe they can help you out also.

[JGH]

Thanks, WW.

I've killed quite a few whitetails with Behman's ... the FMJ that went through a pronghorn last year didn't seem to impress him any MORE than the old ICS arrows. Maybe I'll just go back to that.

The archery shop in Laramie closed down. It's Cheyenne or Ft. Collins now ... happen to be headed to the latter this weekend. I've found Gannett Ridge to be very nice to work with down there.

[WindedBowhunter]

JGH - Are you set on an arrow manufacturer yet? Do you have a target weight of your complete built arrow?

I have had great success with Carbon Tech Whitetail over the years.

And even greater success with the Gold Tip Pro Hunter

To put you in a flexible range around 65lbs, I would recommend these shafts:

Gold Tip Kinetic Pro 340

Gold Tip Velocity Pro 340

CT Whitetail 65/80

Gold Tip Hunter Hunter 7595

It is hard to nail this down, without knowing all accessories that are on your string, what parts exactly will be on/in each arrow shaft. As for me, every grain counts especially when it comes to placing weight on the front or rear of your arrow shaft.

[Willie makit]

This happened to me the other day; I just recently switched to carbon arrows this January. I usually shoot a dozen arrows in the am and then again in the evenings. I noticed the moleskin on my arrow rest shelf beginning to show marks and eventually lifting up. There was just a touch of marking on the fletchings, but my fletching are not in the best shape due to the amount of use they get, so it was hard to 100% say it was hitting. The Bow was tuned about 2 months ago so this was bothering me and I took it to let them look at it.

Basically he put one twist on one yoke to square it up but the #1 thing he/we did was rotate the arrows 120 degrees and shoot each looking for marks, and watching how each tore paper, by his explanation he said after a lot of shooting the spine can be shot out of any carbon arrows mainly from the repeated shock of impact of the target.
First I thought this was crazy, but as we went through my arrows we found two that were hitting the shelf and after rotating them it has since gone completely away. The other guy working there actually picked up a couple of new arrows, some big $ (.001" Straight) held them a couple inches in front of the fletching, placed the tip on a table at about a 45 deg angle or so and with just a tad bit of side pressure rotated the nock making the arrow "roll" across the table. The ones he picked up you could see a wobble in the "rolling" of the shaft, and some were worse than others. This was where they said the arrow should be fletched so all your arrows are the same, preferably on the vertical axis. It makes sense but I wanted to throw this out for you experts to let me know what you think. I’m sold on it because #1 I've got no marks on my moleskin to date and my accuracy has improved.

[WindedBowhunter]

Just a thought, the difference between .001 and .003 should not have any effect on if your fletchings are hitting your rest. These numbers are not managed by any 3rd party. This measurement is taken from the the center of the shaft and not the entire length of the shaft. If you call any good reputable arrow maker they will tell you the same thing, or at least the arrow manufacturers we carry and recommend will tell you. For this reason, we don't cut from one end of the arrow unless a customer mandates it. We cut the shaft from both ends of the shaft. To clarify, if we take a stock 32" shaft and we need to make that shaft 28", we cut 2" from each end of the shaft. This is a standard practice for us, if you want "Super arrows, we identify the straightest part of the shaft and measure out from there to the length needed, then make our cuts, then complete a tuning of each arrow with a broadhead on it.

The contact could be generated by few things:
Too high a fletching for your setup
The timing of your rest, if it is a drop-away style
Too much helical in the fletching

Also, there are some arrow makers that are better, more consistent than others. Were the big $$ shafts from the same manufacturer as yours? Were they the same model? There are many reasons for someone to show you this, but by not explaining why leaves some questions on the table.

If you just switched from aluminum to carbon arrows, you will find that the felt on your rest will wear out faster due to the friction of the arrow. The carbons heat up a bit quicker than aluminum as well. Test this by shooting both into a block style target, after the shot immediately pull the arrow from the target and feel the temp of the front portion of the arrow.

I am not sure how many times you need to shoot an arrow into a solid object before you "shoot the spine can be shot out of any carbon arrow". I have shot the same 1 dozen (now 9 arrows) for the past 3 years. I hunt 12 months (work with the state on a management program) out of the year, so each of these arrows have taken nearly a dozen deer each. I shoot each arrow nearly 1 a day into a Rhineart target.

There are many factors that take a bow out of tune... Humidity, repeated fast temperature changes, high heat, elevation, sting & cable stretch.

Feel free to hit me up if you have any additional questions