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Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

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Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 04, 2017 •  [Post 1]

BUILDING A HUNTING ARROW
I’m going to walk through the process I use for setting up a hunting arrow. Along the way I’m going to give my opinion of arrow weight, spine, FOC, BH’s and tuning. These are my opinions based on my 30+ years of seeing hundreds of critters of all sizes die to an arrow….including over 50 elk between ones shot by friends and myself. I’ve seen plenty survive too……or at least we never found them.....sad to say but the failures are an important part of my opinions.

Just to set the record straight, lets start with some facts that get skipped in many of these “my arrow” discussions;
1) A bow is an amazingly efficient weapon
2) Just about any bow/arrow setup can work under perfect circumstances
3) Arrow flight is the number one factor in an arrows effectiveness
4) Shooting form, Tuning and Perfect arrow assembly [all contributing to #3 above] are much more important than your arrow weight or what BH
5) A bowhunter needs to know the limits of his setup
6) A bowhunter has to have an good understanding of animal anatomy
7) Just because your mech head flys like your FP’s doesn’t mean you have perfect arrow flight.


Yeah, some of the above aren’t specific to your arrow, but they have such a strong bearing on how everything works that they should be considered. I’ve been preaching to anyone that would listen for years; Think of your Bow/Arrow/Broadhead as a system….as it is all inter-related.

There are many other ways to create an effective hunting arrow besides mine……….mine isn’t THE ONLY WAY. My recommendation is to use this information as a guide….and experiment a little to find the right combination of weight, trajectory and BH effectiveness that works for you. I fully realize there is more than one way to skin a cat. That said, I have some pretty strong opinions….grin….just keep an open mind and I will explain the “why” of my choices.

Of course there will be a lot of disagreement with my opinions....but at the very least I hope for guys to "Ask the question" on the HOW and WHY for their own setup.
{I'm hoping I can post pics....lets try this one, Edit; this is going to be a PITA posting pics!]

utah%20bull2%20resize.jpg
utah%20bull2%20resize.jpg (64.87 KiB) Viewed 113577 times
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 04, 2017 •  [Post 2]

YOU CAN’T HAVE TOO MUCH PENETRATION.
There i said it!

I’ve seen the argument that an arrow staying in the animal continues to cut….without factoring in the many negatives. What happens when you have a foreign object IN YOUR BODY…even something as small as a splinter..you want it out. Animals freak out when they have something sticking out of them…they freak even more with an arrow bouncing around. This just pushes them unnecessarily. If you have an arrow stuck in the animal, you lacked penetration due to resistance. This resistance plays hell with the sharpness of your BH’s and can possibly keep your arrow from reaching something vital that will shut down the animal.

So I don’t buy the “Big Hole” argument….due to the many negatives accompanying the resistance a big hole BH creates.

I think back to the animals I’ve seen shot and lost…and always ask myself….”Is there something that would have made that shot a killing shot instead of losing the animal?” Well of course shot location is critical…..but what about the shots that, “Should have killed them”. I’ve seen a bunch of those and the one thing all of the lost animals has in common is a failure of the arrow to reach something vital…..essentially a failure to pass through.

Putting 2 holes in an animal has many advantages besides the obvious. There is almost always the advantage of a good blood trail. There is more of a chance of hitting something vital. On a chest wound, the outside atmosphere helps speed the collapsing of the lungs [that need negative pressure to inflate]. I’ve seen cases where the chest acts like a bellows spraying blood out of the 2 holes. Sure one hole works in a lot of cases….but BOTTOM LINE from what I’ve seen all else considered, 2 holes works better....
water buff 06 800pix.jpg
These bad boys will teach you about arrows!
water buff 06 800pix.jpg (127.72 KiB) Viewed 113611 times
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 04, 2017 •  [Post 3]

They say a pic speaks a thousand words…and in this case, it speaks volumes.
Phathead 800pix.jpg
Tims 2012 bull
Phathead 800pix.jpg (47.52 KiB) Viewed 113607 times



Lets say you make this same shot with a light arrow and mech head [the least likely setup for penetration] YOU LOSE THIS BULL, sorry to say. The light arrow with big cutting diameter stops short, the bull runs off [hurting I’m sure]. Did I mention I’ve seen this happen many times? How much is an additional 1” in penetration worth to you? In many cases it’s the difference of eating elk meat all winter…..or not.

The above Vertebre was essentially the shot that put my buddy Tims bull down....the pic below is a bull that survived [with everybodys favorite BH- grin]
st shoulder red.jpg
st shoulder red.jpg (45.46 KiB) Viewed 113607 times
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 04, 2017 •  [Post 4]

So heres the story. This is my buddy Tims first bull with a bow. [he did a dang fine job overall i would say!] The bull came in on a string to 5-6yds and stopped staring right at him. I went over the anatomy of the frontal shot with him and when to take it as it always seems to come up when we are calling these elk. So he is holding at full draw with this bull staring holes in him….and he decides that he is going to wait and just shoot the broadside shot when the elk turns.
tims shot 800pix.jpg
Me pointing to the first shot location
tims shot 800pix.jpg (119.9 KiB) Viewed 113606 times


Bad idea. Of course the bull turns very quickly once he figures it out and my buddy cranks off a shot catching the bull high in the backbone. The BH severs the spine and the bull drops but recovers and still has the use of his front legs…so he proceeds to crawl away…..more arrows and my buddy stops him…a bit of a mess,[as you can see in the pic] but it worked.

I will opine on shot location later….but for now, this is just one case that sold me on the benefits of penetration. I’ve shot big mech heads in the past…in fact I’m 4 for 4 with those on elk so of course they work…..but I think an arrow setup for max penetration is best.
Tims bull 800pix.jpg
Tims DIY NM bull
Tims bull 800pix.jpg (135.55 KiB) Viewed 113606 times
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 04, 2017 •  [Post 5]

[I''m not liking that "New user" under my name....can we get that changed to SME please- grin]

MORE ON PENETRATION- Yes, its that important!

I see all of the arrow discussions you guys do, the formulas, the mathematical equations….and now I just snicker. The truth is so easy as to be boring….its arrow weight; ALL ELSE EQUAL, IF YOU WANT TO INCREASE THE PENETRATION OF YOUR ARROW INCREASE ARROW WEIGHT. I discovered this while developing an arrow for a Australian Water Buffalo hunt. It really is that simple…arrow weight. When all of the amateur physics guys spewing KE, MO and FOC theories….finally figure it out…boy are they going to feel silly!


How can that be Beendare….. what about BH, etc?

“All else equal” …the heavier arrow penetrates better. Of course the BH design makes a significant difference on penetration, you saw the pics above of the tapered Steelforce vs the steep blade angles of the Slicktrick, big difference many don't factor in [I will get into that later]

The heavier the arrow is……… the harder it is to stop, period. The momentum equation comes close…but why bother when its simpler than that?

Point is; we know that a “light” arrow works…so if we want a more effective arrow…we just go heavier. How heavy is heavy? Now we are splitting hairs. I haven’t found 25 gr to make a significant difference. Its probably due to the facts above…that a bow is an amazing weapon and 25 gr in the scheme of things is like spitting in the ocean.

I did some testing years ago shooting light vs heavy. In fact, while working up that Buff arrow I shot a whole range of arrow from 380gr to 840…and did a detailed chart with KE, Mo, FOC etc. It was a long involved process over many weeks [boring!] ….so let me condense it down to a couple takeaways. The first being that it is very hard to differentiate minor differences in arrow makeup. The little variations in arrow Fletching, weight [like 25 gr] or FOC….made little difference.

The biggest take away was; At bowhunting distances we shoot, the difference in trajectory between arrows weighing 100gr different isn’t a big difference….but the impact on hitting a target or animal [increased penetration] IS SIGNIFICANT. Example; the 440gr arrow I was hunting with at the time was very close in trajectory to a 500gr arrow…the 440gr shot slightly less than 1” higher than the 500gr at 40 yds. Now comparing trajectories is tricky. If you shoot the heavy arrow with your sight set for the light arrow….it skews the difference showing more like a 3” difference….because you are starting the heavy arrow on a lower plane. Point is….the heavier arrows trajectory isn’t as bad you might think. Try it...you will see.

Arrow selection is always a tradeoff. Heavy arrows;
1) Are easier to tune
2) Have better penetration
3) Make your bow quieter with less vibration [ this helps with less animal reaction on the shot]
4) Absorb more of the bows energy [thus the improvements in performance as arrow weight increases]
NOTE; many of the software calculators don’t account for this fact

I think the many advantages to a heavier arrow outweigh the only advantage a light arrow has….slightly flatter trajectory. How heavy is of course subjective. I think an arrow in the high 400's to just below 600gr is a good compromise for a modern compound [a little more or less is still what we are talking about here!]….a bit heavier is appropriate with stickbows.

I shoot a 500gr arrow in my 70# compound and 600 gr arrow in my 50# recurve....but there is no magic number.
bull w arrows 800 pix.jpg
Or you can just get lucky!
bull w arrows 800 pix.jpg (96 KiB) Viewed 113603 times
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 04, 2017 •  [Post 6]


So lets talk basic essentials of every good hunting arrow.
ARROW FLIGHT

Arrow Flight is THE most important factor for a hunting arrow…by a wide margin.

I think a lot of the performance problems we hear about with arrows is due to poor arrow flight. Even with a perfectly tuned setup, its easy to have less than perfect form on a hunting shot in the woods.
A good buddy that owns an archery shop told me about a Hoyt company pro that gives a seminar on form with a detuned bow...I mean he really detunes it, like move the rest 1/4"....and shoots FP’s incredibly well stacking arrow on top of arrow….WITH VISIBLY TERRIBLE ARROW FLIGHT. The incredible John Demmer that recently shot perfect score after perfect score winning Vegas has stated he doesn’t tune for perfect arrow flight while target shooting…but instead tunes for perfect accuracy when target shooting. The above examples should tell you something! Decent groups only tells you the shooter has repeatable form. You can even do the exact same thing wrong every time and shoot decent groups with FP’s.

Edit 3.11.17 Maybe this photo will help explain this concept. I just started tuning my new Dryad 19" riser [with my ILF recurve limbs] After shooting some blank bale....I step back to shoot this group at 20 yds.
dryad tune800pix.jpg
Dryad/Innos 52# 400s
dryad tune800pix.jpg (71.88 KiB) Viewed 113177 times


Ready to hunt with eh?
Nope, the arrow on the left is a bareshaft in the same group....showing weak. MY FP GROUP IS VERY GOOD [better than I shoot on avg]...but it only tells me my shooting form was consistent. I DID NOT HAVE GOOD ARROW FLIGHT. In fact if I screwed on BH's without further BH tuning, I would have found my hunting arrow flight mediocre. The other thing was my bow was loud with this arrow...a clue to poor tuning. I could hear [and see] the difference as soon as I shot a heavier spined arrow- it flew well.

The guys shooting mech heads without tuning because their FP's group are missing the point!

Put on some BH’s and it’s a whole different ballgame….now that poor arrow flight has the BH steering your arrow off track…..AND giving you poor penetration. If you just screw on mech heads without tuning ….sure they fly like your FP’s…..but it doesn’t mean you have perfect arrow flight! So many guys don’t understand the difference!


Perfect arrow flight with BH’s is one of those light bulb moments. Not only do your FP’s and BH’s shoot to the same spot….but your bow is just a little sweeter shooting, smoother and quieter with better arrow penetration.

I think the best analogy I’ve heard describing arrow penetration is to picture your arrow as a tube of ball bearings. With perfect flight, the entire stack of bearings contribute to penetration. When an arrow has even a tiny wobble, the vector force of the tail of the arrow is lost. When the arrow strikes perfectly straight….you get the railroad train effect of each car contributing to the force at the BH.
{Lets see if my half azzed diagram loads]
arrow vector 800 pix.jpg
Arrow vector force diagram
arrow vector 800 pix.jpg (168.1 KiB) Viewed 113603 times


Its interesting to note....the tiniest bit of off angle strike makes a big difference in arrow force...exaggerated in my diagram.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 04, 2017 •  [Post 7]


So many advantages to a tuned bow;
1) Smoother
2) Quieter
3) More forgiving of poor form/bad release
4) PERFECT ARROW FLIGHT- and all the performance advantages that brings
ARROW SPINE


True; A guy with perfect form can shoot an underspined FP tipped arrow well,… its not the same with a hunting arrow in hunting conditions. If you want to fine tune your spine…go for it…..I don't think there is much advantage to do so.

That said, I’ve shot overspined hunting arrows for decades. There are many advantages;
1) They tune well
2) They perform well
3) They are tougher than a lighter spined arrow

Don’t cut yourself too close on these spine charts….or software programs.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 04, 2017 •  [Post 8]

I shoot a setup that allows me to shoot every hunting arrow for accuracy prior to putting in in my quiver. There is no guesswork....i know that arrow will shoot perfect.....I've tested it.

Every once in awhile I will find one of these Axis that doesn’t group….but its very rare with overspined arrows [another advantage] When I do, I turn the nok 90 degrees and shoot it again which almost always solves it. Then I refletch…touch up my BH to popping sharp and in the quiver.

20 years ago, It used to be that you would get a few in each dozen with inconsistent spine. Those Gold tips used to be poor in that regard….but that was a long time ago, now these carbons are excellent. If you really want the best spine consistency, go with the ACC’s or the FMJ’s….the aluminum gives you better consistency.

I shoot the all carbon Axis as I am pretty hard on arrows in my quiver so I want an arrow that won’t hold a bend. We were in Alaska hunting caribou one year and the pilot drop camped us in front of the herd…but it happened to be a swamp. In places it looked like tundra but we were really walking on a lake…it was like walking on a waterbed! My fat ass was breaking through the tundra regularly burying my leg to the crotch…so I used my bow as a snow shoe to extract myself. I was thankful for tough arrows that didn’t hold a bend!
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 04, 2017 •  [Post 9]

TUNING....Crucial!

Many ways to skin a cat on this. I do what I’ve done for years;

Compound; I paper tune with FP’s…then I BH tune by shooting groups. I find I never need to move my rest or make tiny yoke adjustments that are more than about 1/16” in any direction from my paper tune….though the paper is really only the ½ way point.

Recurve; I bareshaft tune…when my recurve shoots a bareshaft out to 25 yds with my other arrows…it will shoot BH’s to the same POA.
There are many excellent tuning guides out there…so I will skim over this but to mention; when your BH’s are impacting with your FP’s….you are tuned.

here are some 460gr vs 500 gr arrows shot from 40 yds.......40 gr is not a big difference in the scheme of things....
460 v 500 at40yds 800pix.jpg
460 v 500 at40yds 800pix.jpg (147.81 KiB) Viewed 113601 times
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 04, 2017 •  [Post 10]

ARROW ASSEMBLY


A perfectly straight arrow is a must. I’ve found the straightness factor of the shaft is less important than a perfectly assembled BH. So if your arrows are .006” in a 28” length…no problem. But if your BH is off .006” in the front 2 inches…you are going to get some crazy steerage. [pair that with an untuned bow and its crazy bad]

You have to put your arrows on some sort of a jig to make sure the ends are perfectly straight. Some say you can do it off the saw….I suppose it can be done…but I haven’t seen it.
Jig reduced800pix.jpg
My homemade jig
Jig reduced800pix.jpg (53.93 KiB) Viewed 113594 times

I use the jig above to sand the ends of the carbons square- a critical step as carbons don't come off the saw perfectly square.

arrow ends 800pix.jpg
squared vs right off the saw
arrow ends 800pix.jpg (190.4 KiB) Viewed 113594 times

You can actually see the difference. I’m convinced it makes the arrow stronger too as the impact is on a solid square end to spread the impact evenly.
I used to cut both ends...but now I put the factory ends on the jig. I also used to check spine consistency with a spine tester before I cut them…but now so few don’t group it’s a waste of time.
bh spin re.jpg
Works as a spin checker too
bh spin re.jpg (112.04 KiB) Viewed 113594 times


I’ve tried the aluminum collars on the ends of the Axis too….I think it helps a little…but IME if an arrow is going to break…it breaks! These Axis are tough son of a guns!


Many guys spin check their arrows for wobble…descent technique but its dependent on the skill of the checker. I found on the short BH’s that it was right about .004” off of perfect I had a hard time detecting wobble [YMMV!] not good enough!
Years ago, i spent some time checking some of those BH tipped arrows with a micrometer that appeared to spin…………….. and I found something interesting. [I rigged the micrometer on the end of my jig…it was really a PITA process, let me tell you]
I shot some of those .004" against some heads I straightened on the jig to .002" at 40, 50yds...and the groups were much better with .002"…about 25% better as I recall. Then factor in….that is under perfect conditions. The straighter arrow will of course be more forgiving in windy or hunting conditions.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 04, 2017 •  [Post 11]

BROADHEADS

After shooting many designs over the years I have gravitated to a strong tapered fixed Cut on Contact head.


I had decent luck with mech heads but stopped using them for MANY reasons, the top 5;

1) They are harder to BH tune for perfect arrow flight....and impossible to test each Arrow/BH combo.

2)The blades are thin, weak
bent rage head2.jpg
bent rage head2.jpg (70.47 KiB) Viewed 113572 times

{at the limit for pics....I have 10 more bent,broken crummy mech head failure pics]



3) They limit my shot selection. The addl performance from a strong fixed COC head can turn a bad shot location into a killing shot. The difference is amazing almost guaranteeing 2 holes every time and they get through tough tissue to vital organs better.

4) I don't have to think about my BH at crunch time; blades opening in the quiver...or in flight, etc. My total focus is on the shot.

5) animals shot with a mech head know they have been hit...and take off like they are on fire. On the contrary with a fixed COC head many times they have no idea what just happened. I have had much easier recoveries overall with COC heads.

6) less chance of a ricochet





Using an arrow on the heavier side makes it easy to tune a big strong fixed blade head. The VPA 150 gr 2 and 3 blade heads tune the same in both my recurve and Spyder turbo. I can shoot them to test….then touch up easily and in the quiver. Note, these have some carbon steel in them so in the rain you want a little Vaseline on the edges so they don’t rust.
6 bh's comparison 800pix.jpg
VPA 150 3bl on left, 2 blade black
6 bh's comparison 800pix.jpg (86.06 KiB) Viewed 113572 times


I like the Tapered fixed COC design for many reasons;

1) They go through the animal effortlessly

2) They hold their edge with the tapered design…the tapered designs puts less pressure on the blade bevel keeping them sharper through the animal [less chopping and more sliding in]

3) The heavier blades give them a stronger bevel...those thin blades dull easily
BH ST mangled 800 pix.jpg
ST that lodged into off side shoulder
BH ST mangled 800 pix.jpg (127.06 KiB) Viewed 113572 times



4) Very little animal reaction…in fact I’ve had animals just stand there dumping blood on the ground while they look around like, “what was that?”….and then just fall over.
5) Two holes…of course and better penetration

This arrow/BH setup gives me more performance on marginal shot locations. To each his own...mech heads work fine in most cases........a guy just needs to understand the ins and outs of his setup. The advantage to my penetrating setup is increased flexibility.....I don't have to restrict my shots to 'Strictly broadside" . Whichever you choose, know what your setup is capable of.
“It takes no more time to see the good side of life.... than to see the bad.”
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 04, 2017 •  [Post 12]

More BH fails.....
Rage in roadkill.jpg
Rage in roadkill.jpg (16.64 KiB) Viewed 113572 times


mech in bone.JPG
Mech in light bone
mech in bone.JPG (19.29 KiB) Viewed 113572 times


Anyway....to sum it up; No you don't NEED a heavy tuned arrow setup like mine....this is just one guys experience/opinion from over 3 decades and hundreds of critters dying to an arrow....food for thought.
“It takes no more time to see the good side of life.... than to see the bad.”
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Roosiebull » 03 04, 2017 •  [Post 13]

absolutely great write up Bruce!
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 03 04, 2017 •  [Post 14]

Umm, would exceptional be an insult? Thanks so much for your time and effort to create this thread Bruce. It's now a permanent "sticky" on top of the gear forum. As far as that new user badge in your ID section, its been changed ;) . Thanks for being part of our campfire mister... You always have a log to plop down on here. RJ
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Heartwood » 03 04, 2017 •  [Post 15]

Thanks for the nice writeup! Pictures sure do make many things more clear and understandable. It is obvious that you have put a lot of work into finding your perfect setup and learned many good lessons along the way.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Swede » 03 04, 2017 •  [Post 16]

I listened to Ed Eliason talk one whole day about arrows and what works. I have the book Arrow University or something similar he used for a text. I have also enjoyed Michele Ragsdale put on a talk about proper arrow making. Bruce you just took things up a notch. Thanks.
For years I have had the idea that if my broadheads hit consistently where my Field tips do, and there is no visible in flight arrow wobble, my bow and arrow setup is good. The bow is tuned and the arrows are right for the bow. When there are variances either in consistency, or in different group placements, then something is wrong. Have I over simplified things? Of coarse figuring out what needs fixed often means checking everything from both the bow and the arrow.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Roosiebull » 03 04, 2017 •  [Post 17]

I have to say, i'm kind of hard headed....maybe even a little of a gluten for punishment....even been noted as opinionated (I try to avoid that badge) but I am what I am...that being said, paying attention to Beendare's thoughts on heavy arrows, I have transitioned from a 380 grain arrow, just a few years ago...this year will be somewhere in the 550 grain range, I have been bumping my arrow weight up every year, and having better results as I do, along with a sharp COC head....last year I made a bad first shot, straight liver...but got a 59 yd follow up shot (don't think that would have happened with my old setup) my second shot was one I would never take on a healthy bull...59 yds, almost facing away, facing uphill...I hit him at the base of the the vertebrae right ahead of the ham, and my arrow still punched through into the vitals.

that is 2 things that should be highlighted, first shot zipped through and didn't alarm him, and allowed a second shot....next shot, my arrow combo had enough steam to go through some heavy bone at long range, and still make it to the vitals.....horrible situation for me, and I still heard him die.

the 2 years prior, which were my intro years to heavy arrows...no tracking involved...the first year, the elk hopped about 2 steps on impact, stood there, then hooves in the air...quick.

the next year, snuck up on a small bull (I ain't picky, if it has more than spikes, it ain't safe....some days spikes are pushing their luck :D ) I got him at 31 yds, got a clear shot and took it, I heard my arrow go through the ferns behind him, he didn't flinch....the cows perked up for a second, then calmed back down, I decided to shoot him again, and did...still nothing...he finally started to lose his back legs, did a 180 into a nose dive....done.

it has been awesome for me, I wish I would have known sooner...I thought you shot them, they took off sprinting until they died....Bruce was pushing the benefits of heavy arrows, I listened and applied it....thanks for that Beendare! game changer for me.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Lefty » 03 04, 2017 •  [Post 18]

Great post

Can a copy be placed in the archived tips?
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Muleskinner79 » 03 05, 2017 •  [Post 19]

Excellant write up, thanks.. very well done sir.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby T.B. » 03 05, 2017 •  [Post 20]

Thanks for the post. Great explanations and nicely written .
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby N2mywake » 03 05, 2017 •  [Post 21]

Great thread. Many of these things I've been tinkering with to improve my setup.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 05, 2017 •  [Post 22]

Swede wrote:....
For years I have had the idea that if my broadheads hit consistently where my Field tips do, and there is no visible in flight arrow wobble, my bow and arrow setup is good. The bow is tuned and the arrows are right for the bow. When there are variances either in consistency, or in different group placements, then something is wrong. Have I over simplified things? Of coarse figuring out what needs fixed often means checking everything from both the bow and the arrow.


^^no oversimplification...you are right on the money!

If your bow doesn't shoot BH's to the same POA of your fps [all else equal]...then it tells you your BH tipped arrow is coming out of your bow a little funny- simple.
I've helped guys that shot pretty good on the range...but had poor arrow flight. They couldn't believe it how good they really were with a tuned bow. If you get anything out of this thread it should be; Don't settle guys!

Look, you DON'T HAVE to shoot a heavier arrow...or a fixed BH....as Tim Gilligham in his very good vids on arrows says, " an avg arrow works"...and he is right. The reason I do what I do is for added performance. Then there is many added advantages like the fact your bow is whisper quiet. I admire guys like Roosie bull that have an open mind...and now he essentially made my point....the heavier tuned arrow can turn lost animals into kills. Kudos bro!

The guys saying, "No, its shot selection" crack me up. Who trys to make a bad shot anyway? Anyone bowhunting for any length of time..or hunting for that matter has made a bad shot. I feel my arrow and setup gives me an added advantage...even on a slightly less than perfect shot.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 05, 2017 •  [Post 23]

I will post up some more "Food for thought" pictures when I'm on my other computer.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Cbb » 03 05, 2017 •  [Post 24]

Excellent post, Thanks!
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Swede » 03 05, 2017 •  [Post 25]

I wounded a nice buck this past season. The shot placement looked excellent to bot my brother and me. I have mulled this over and over in my mind. I have started to think my broadhead was not sharp enough. Even though it went deep, is it possible that it did not sever the veins and arteries like it should have. It is likely that arrow was taken out of the quiver many times when I went to my tree stand. It is likely that it was in the quiver several years without the blades being changed.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby cohunter » 03 05, 2017 •  [Post 26]

This is a great post! Lots to read and think about - really well done. I like all the pictures. That was a serious chunk of time invested in all of us - thanks!
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby cohunter14 » 03 06, 2017 •  [Post 27]

Thanks for the write-up, very informative. What was the story with the Slick Trick? I see the pictures, but it sounds like they were from a bull that survived? Did you find someone else's broadhead in the bull?
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 06, 2017 •  [Post 28]

Story with the Slick Trick....

I drew an Az unit 27 elk tag in 2013. As the hunt drew closer...my 84 yr old dad was in really bad shape...on hospice and just hanging on. The season opened and i just didn't want to leave him like that.

He passed away a couple days into the season. I was in no mood for a solo hunt though I had all my stuff ready to toss in the truck and go. It was my wife that finally kicked me out of the house...she understands how much these elk hunts mean to me. [The same woman that agreed to my one condition on getting married decades ago; "when I say I'm going hunting....you say Have a nice trip"] grin

Anyway, right before I left I grabbed some Slick Trick BH's that the owner Gary had spiffed me. Gary and i had some spirited discussions for many years back and forth on BH design [spirited is the respectful way of saying it, we battled!] ...at one point i tried to buy his company though he wasn't selling.[ It was interesting he came out with a tapered design after our discussions] Gary had died too...so I suppose it was one of those in his honor...or my dads honor or something [convoluted logic i know?] i decided to use the ST head.

Like I said, i had moved away from the thin replaceable blade heads for many reasons. The blades can dull easy, break....they work of course but I wanted something stronger and a little better. Well on this hunt i went back to those freebie ST's that were gifted to me.

The hunt was a bit of an ordeal for me due to my poor mood....and setting up camp in the dark and pouring rain didn't help. In fact, it rained more than it didn't on that hunt. i started getting into bulls right off the bat- hey, its a great unit bulls screaming everywhere...it was hard NOT to get into them. I just wasn't finding a "good bull" for the unit. I couldn't be too picky as the hunt was more than 1/2over and i only had about 3 more days of the season. I was out about 2 hours before light about 2 miles into a remote canyon [raining of course] with bulls bugling all around me. one sounded really good...but you know how that goes...you never know. I shadowed the good sounding bull trying to stay about 200-300 yds away until it got light enough to see.

I was in some burned out timber with the bull and 15 cows across the canyon as it got light. this is what it looked like;
decoy setup 800pix.jpg
decoy setup 800pix.jpg (252.82 KiB) Viewed 113417 times


Well my plan sucked. I was too far out and had to move through timber that was more open than I thought [in the pitch black] I worked in to 125 yds holding the decoy out in front of me..but of course the elk were getting antsy and knew something wasn't right. The bull was trying to round them up and they started to line off angling away at about 100 yds. I plopped down right next to my decoy thinking the jig was up...oh BTW ,GOOD bull too. Not a monster..but decent. Then i saw him....the spike. He was mingling in with the cows.

I went into my excited cow calls with a little secret I use. That was it, i could see the spike getting excited looking over but the cows were lined out moving off. i stepped it up a little....and sure enough...that spiker ran out in front of the herd and made a beeline downhill straight for the decoy bringing the whole line of cows with him.

The herd ended up walking across my scent stream about 30 yds away but they were all confused by that spike. the bull kept pushing them forward not knowing what was up and i shot him slightly quartering away at about 30 yds. The Arrow hit him a little high mid body, double lung and angled into his off shoulder with a whack. He jumped a few steps and stopped as the cows were going everywhere. i quickly shot him again for good measure...this time low [i never did find the arrow]. The cows spooked bad on that shot as 1/2 of them were looking right at me. The bull went over a little hump out of sight.....but cows stopped for awhile looking back across the canyon to a spot about 80 yds from me on my side....like they were waiting for the bull. I knew i had him...just couldn't see him.

laying there 800pix.jpg
pic from where i hit him
laying there 800pix.jpg (63.62 KiB) Viewed 113417 times


The ST was in his off shoulder but I couldn't believe the damage to the blades. now many will say..."well it worked" ...and it did of course. the purpose of my comments in NOT to knock guys that want to use this or that...sure it all works....this thread is about my refinements- no more no less.
bull front 800pix.jpg
2013 Az bull
bull front 800pix.jpg (122.81 KiB) Viewed 113417 times


sorry for the crummy pics...raining, solo...I have all kinds of excuses- grin
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 06, 2017 •  [Post 29]

Some food for thought pics....
st hole hair_1.jpg
ST chopping on entry
st hole hair_1.jpg (53.97 KiB) Viewed 113417 times


Look at how this BH chopped its way in......

This one says a lot i think. I had a couple cases where I was using one of those short less tapered fixed head design "Because they tune easier"..which they do. I had a muddy hog where the dull BH pushed tissue out the exit hole...and i had a heck of a time tracking him with zero blood. WTF

I had an elk [that was all muddy wallowing] that i shot perfect in the pocket...[hey, it was 35 yds perfectly broadside and I was a good shooter back then...it WAS perfect- grin] The bull ran up the hill falling over then getting up...for about 10 minutes until i could sneak up and get another arrow in him. Another WTF moment! Well that BH and the one I shot the hog with was so dull you couldn't cut yourself with it.

I finally realized; blade angle [the taper] matters. The short heads and over the top mech heads have to CHOP through hide and hair...sometimes a little...sometimes a lot. with thin skinned deer...its not as much an issue. But many of us know...an elk is not 'just a bigger deer'....the hair and hide is many times heavier. Drag your skinning knife over the outside of an elk hide and YOU KNOW how fast it can dull a knife. Of course its going to dull a thin razor blade! So essentially my short heads were dulling on contact....and i was shooting animals with a dull BH.



BH DESIGN
The above examples are why I now like a Tapered Cut on Contact design with a thicker blade of better than avg steel....this gives them a strong well supported bevel. The thin blades have an slim unsupported bevel...easily dulled. The taper puts less pressure on the blades edge [bevel]. True, they don't tune as easy as the short heads in a 300FPS bow.....but I shoot a heavier arrow partially for that reason; easier tuning.

Splitting hairs.....sure....but i like to think of it as "fine tuning" < Grin>
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 06, 2017 •  [Post 30]

Many good BH's out there from the less expensive Buzzcuts....to VPA's....and then the high quality/big $$ steel heads.

I like a head like the VPA that I can use over and over. They are easy to sharpen. # blades; I put them on a long fine flat diamond stone...but then take a very fine chock stick at an angle and give them a couple goes with 5X a side...gets them popping sharp with light pressure.
sharpeneing.jpg
sharpeneing.jpg (156.82 KiB) Viewed 113414 times


That is the triangle chock stick from the Spyderco Sharpsmaker. I also like the chock sticks for sharpening the 2 blade. I set them up in the "V"...put the BH on a short section of arrow holding the BH vertical...and strop down on the "V". Gets those 2 blade BH's super sharp.

FOC

Some guys get all into the whole very high FOC thing. Suffice it to say I'm not a fan of EFOC...or UEFOC...whatever the term is. I tested that for a buff arrow and couldn't get the accuracy I was getting with a balanced arrow in the Easton 8-16% recommended range. Can it be done? I'm sure. There is a reason that the Easton engineers have their recommendation....and 99.98% of the pros in every form of archery are in the range.

Thats about it....i hope i can save someone my long learning curve on this.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Swede » 03 06, 2017 •  [Post 31]

Beendare wrote:FOCSome guys get all into the whole very high FOC thing. Suffice it to say I'm not a fan of EFOC...or UEFOC...whatever the term is. I tested that for a buff arrow and couldn't get the accuracy I was getting with a balanced arrow in the Easton 8-16% recommended range. Can it be done? I'm sure. There is a reason that the Easton engineers have their recommendation....and 99.98% of the pros in every form of archery are in the range.


I agree completely with what you are explaining on this entire thread. You have caused me to rethink some of my tuning works. You have obviously done a lot of evaluating BHs and arrows.
I am not convinced that you can go to the EFOC and violate the principles Easton has published, and not have the problems you describe in post 6.
The EFOC boys remind me of the kids that would replace their stock carburetor and stock intake manifold, with a single plane manifold and huge double pumper thinking they were going to increase their power. :( Just like with the car example, you need to consider the whole equipment matter when you start messing with things like FOC or you will suffer like the big carb. boys did.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 06, 2017 •  [Post 32]

Yeah, agreed Swede .......its best IMO to think of your Bow/Arrow/BH as a system. When you add abnormal amount of weight to the tip....how does it affect the rest of your system?

In the case of EFOC, guys always talk about supposed advantages 'on contact'...or ' in flight' [inconclusive if these are accurate,BTW] ...but they never discuss the disruptive effect a lot of tip weight has ON THE LAUNCH.
arrow in hand800pix.jpg
my buddy Chucks hand
arrow in hand800pix.jpg (237.61 KiB) Viewed 113396 times




Can you make it work...sure. The question really is, "Is it better?" In a modern compound...I say no. If it really were 'Better' you can bet the many pros that would sell their first born for a tiny improvement in accuracy would be all over it. ' System'....remember....you don't want to sacrifice accuracy for penetration, right?

Anyway, FOC is not that complicated. Easton that has studied this for 50 years......and essentially all of the pros stay in that range. ONE GUY recommends otherwise....who are you going to listen to?

....


.....
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Cbb » 03 06, 2017 •  [Post 33]

That looks like it fuggin hurt....
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Swede » 03 06, 2017 •  [Post 34]

Ouch. There has to be a story behind that.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 06, 2017 •  [Post 35]

That was my buddy Chuck....great guy/tough bastard...

Yeah, the story is; flex your carbon arrows if you smack something hard....ESPECIALLY if you are shooting a light spine...or high EFOC arrow [which is essentially making your arrow spine very weak]
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby otcWill » 03 06, 2017 •  [Post 36]

Really great stuff here. Thanks for your contribution
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby jmez » 03 06, 2017 •  [Post 37]

Great post!! Thanks for putting that together.

Good point on the shooting for accuracy vs having perfect arrow flight. As you say, most don't understand the difference. Good friend of mine is a very competitive 3-D shooter on the East Coast, rubs elbows with a lot of the top names. Quotes a former multiple time Vegas winner when asked about arrow flight. The guy says I don't care if my arrows are flying sideways as long as they hit the X. Put a bow in a Hooter shooter and it doesn't matter how it is set up. It will bust nocks all day long.

I like heavy arrows. Currently shooting around 515gr. May be bumping that up another 25gr this year but haven't decided yet. I have yet to find a single disadvantage to shooting a heavy arrow.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby six » 03 07, 2017 •  [Post 38]

Good read. Thank you. I never really understood the concept behind tuning your bow so the broad heads impact the same as field points. I would practice all summer with field points then switch to broad heads a month before season and adjust my sight. I will be tuning my bow as soon as the weather breaks. Thanks again.

Totally agree with your broad head theory. Whitetails are as flighty as they get. I never saw a whitetail die within sight of my stand until I switched to Magnus Stingers.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 07, 2017 •  [Post 39]

Let me add just one more thought;

PERSPECTIVE

I think with the information overload out there one the internet... its tough sometimes to sift through it. I think a guy has to consider the source...and where that guy is coming from; HIS PERSPECTIVE

The internet is full of experts [some legit, some not so much] and shills pushing sponsored products. Some obvious...some not so obvious. of course that doesn't mean its not good advice.....BUT ITS SLANTED FOR SURE. The same thing goes for perspective. I tried to give you an insight into where I'm coming from.

Take a target guy for example. I've had the pleasure of knowing and hunting with a few very good pro shooters. One guy won the IBO championship the year before I hunted elk in Co with him...[and he missed an elk on that hunt...but I digress] I have never met one of these target guys that didn't initially like light to medium weight arrows and mech heads. They all have a distinct mindset...or perspective. They favor trajectory over the advantages of arrow weight. They also don't have a problem with taking long shots.

Now these are exceptional shooters....that can shoot much better than i for sure...and most of the rest of us. They extrapolate that into longer shots at game.....and essentially setup their equipment for those longer shots....again their perspective. I'm not saying that is right or wrong...I think it comes down to each individual...and each situation is different.

I called this bull in close...[same one I posted the pic earlier] but we spooked him across an avalanche chute. I stopped the bull across the canyon for 2 sponsored pro shooters already at full draw....55 yds on the RF. They both shot a split second apart. The bull took a step on the shot....and both arrows caught the bull in the back ham. I thought, "Oh No!"....but after 30 yds the bull started to wobble...and then went down in sight....they caught the femoral artery...lucky.
kirk hector bull 800pix.jpg
lucky shot bull
kirk hector bull 800pix.jpg (257.48 KiB) Viewed 113342 times



I have a buddy that guided many pros on a top deer/pig ranch for years. Some of these pros could shoot a 6" group at the 120 yd target they had in camp. They were GOOD. My buddy said out of appx 35 very long shots between 80-100+ yds....they recovered ONE animal. ONE!

So without turning this into a this or that on long shots.... as I do think they can be successful with the right body language in the right conditions...lets bring it back to perspective. Everyone has their own unique perspective...and when determining what advice to adapt and make your own.....assess their background/experience/motivation whether it be from from podcast, internet, youTube, speakers [whatever] that you wish to follow.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Charina » 03 07, 2017 •  [Post 40]

jmez wrote:I have yet to find a single disadvantage to shooting a heavy arrow.

I find a flat trajectory a nice advantage of not going too heavy. 450gr arrows here, and I appreciate that I can use a single pin for all shots 30 yards and under. I know bumping that to 550 will only mean a few inches at 30 yards, but it does make accurate ranging/estimating all the more critical at 40-50 yards. Not a big deal, but I appreciate the simplicity of flatter trajectory.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Swede » 03 07, 2017 •  [Post 41]

I am thinking the same way as Charina on this. I did not interpret Beendare's message to say always go extremely heavy. He said you get more KE the heavier you go, but there is a compromise with trajectory. That trajectory, or drop in the arrow is more pronounced the farther out you go with the heavier arrow. At 40-50 yards, your range estimate must be more precise with a 500 grain arrow than a 400 grain one.
The truth in my estimation is we need to know our limits and our equipment's limits. I shoot a 415-425 grain arrow and limit my shots on elk to 40 yards. The reason I do that is, I am not a great shooter, the elk can move too easily when I shoot long distances increasing the risk of a wounded animal, and my equipment (arrow) is losing energy too fast. Too much can go wrong. Is my arrow too light at the range I shoot. I don't think so. It will pass completely through an elk if bone is not hit, or it will break a rib and still do its deadly task.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby lamrith » 03 07, 2017 •  [Post 42]

RJ mentioned this thread Sunday before I tried to knock him out with a rock so I could make off with his shiny new Darton. We did some tinkering with arrows, weights, etc and ran a few combinations thru my chrono so he had an idea where the new bow shoots.

I am trying to digest this thread still, talk about a Ton of great info! Thanks OP and everyone. I am also a follower of the flatter trajectory theory a bit. Simply because I am new and ranging errors are super easy in the field. It gives me piece of mind knowing I could misjudge and still put an arrow in the boiler room with my bow. (currently 290fps+ @ 411grn) KE though definitely has it benefits, and I will be tinkering with heavier this spring. I would love to have a bow shoot a 500grn arrow @ 300fps, just pretty sure my shoulder would not like it!

Beendare - Can you elaborate some on your comment about only a 1" high for 400grn vs 500grn? It just does not make sense to me based on my experience the last few years. I know if I set my pins for say 400grn arrow and then shoot a 450, the 450 is more than 1" below POA. Not doubting you, I am just trying to follow what you are saying there.

What I do know is now I am gonna have to go home and shoot my bow in the freezing rain because of you clowns! maybe just do chrono work inside for now.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 07, 2017 •  [Post 43]

lamrith wrote:Beendare - Can you elaborate some on your comment about only a 1" high for 400grn vs 500grn? It just does not make sense to me based on my experience the last few years. I know if I set my pins for say 400grn arrow and then shoot a 450, the 450 is more than 1" below POA. Not doubting you, I am just trying to follow what you are saying there.
.


Like I said, comparing trajectories is tricky.The calculators I've seen don't do a perfect job with these trajectories either as many don't factor in the additional energy absorbed by the heavier arrow.

Remember, its all related to your line of sight. Of course the lighter arrow is faster/flatter. If you shoot a heavier arrow with your sight set for your lighter arrow...you are starting the heavy arrow on a lower point from your sight line...of course its going make the trajectory look worse.......it started lower!


When you shoot the light arrow from the position adjusted for the heavy arrow...... I think this gives you the best comparison between trajectories.

My bet is many will be surprised at how little the difference. My "one inch" comparison is using that method. Now in reality it is not actually 1" [though thats where the arrow hits the target, 1" higher] it is a little more if you compare trajectory scientifically. You would need do some major finagling to get the exact same launch point in relation to line of sight.

I think if you try this method with the heavy vs. light...and it will make more sense.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Charina » 03 07, 2017 •  [Post 44]

Beendare wrote:Like I said, comparing trajectories is tricky.The calculators I've seen don't do a perfect job with these trajectories either as many don't factor in the additional energy absorbed by the heavier arrow.

Input real world chrono data, and most certainly the calculators capture the difference. In trajectory, overall KE does not matter one iota, only the directional velocity and the weight. Put real data in, and there is no issue whatsoever in obtaining real trajectories to compare.

Beendare wrote: Remember, its all related to your line of sight. Of course the lighter arrow is faster/flatter. If you shoot a heavier arrow with your sight set for your lighter arrow...you are starting the heavy arrow on a lower point from your sight line...of course its going make the trajectory look worse.......it started lower!

You gotta 'splain the physics of that for my narrow mind to be able to wrap around it. Unless one is cherry picking where the arrows are crossing the line of sight to obtain desired data, that does not compute for me. I don't care if your sight is set high, low, or way off. For every setting of your sight, both arrows are launched at the same attitude, with consistent relative weights, consistent relative speeds, and constant rate of acceleration of gravity. Drop is drop, whether or not starting off with a itsy bitsy tiny weeny change in launch attitude.

Beendare wrote:When you shoot the light arrow from the position adjusted for the heavy arrow...... I think this gives you the best comparison between trajectories.

You mean like this guy, who normally shoots heavier, is sighted in for heavier (using shaft inserts), and flings an otherwise identical, but lighter arrow downrange for comparison? Granted, he's going from 376 to 550, but 6 inches at 30 yards, while completely manageable, is not insignificant. It only compounds as distances increase.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby jmez » 03 07, 2017 •  [Post 45]

The trajectory has never been an issue for me. In 30 years of hunting with a bow I've never missed or hit an animal badly where the trajectory would have made a difference. Now with range finders it isn't even a consideration. First thing I do when I set up to call, set up to wait etc is range trees or bushes or other things in my shooting area so I know distances. I don't shoot a single pin though either.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby jmez » 03 07, 2017 •  [Post 46]

What type of chrono are you using to get real world numbers at longer distances? No idea how I'd set one up at longer distances and get the arrow through it?
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Swede » 03 07, 2017 •  [Post 47]

I set mine up the same way I would for a short range shot. You just have to hit where you are aiming. It could be a little hard on the chronograph to shoot it even with an arrow.

I don't follow Beendare's logic on this trajectory business. When I shot a heavier 500 grain arrow from the same starting point (the rest on my bow) and the same tree stand platform, the launched arrow hits significantly lower at 40 yards than a 400 grain arrow if I sight with the same pin. I need to space my pins farther apart for the 500 grain arrow. Does it really make a difference when my pins are set correctly when shooting a known distance? No. Does it make a difference when shooting an unknown distance. It is much more likely to make a significant difference resulting in a wounded animal or a miss when hunting.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby lamrith » 03 08, 2017 •  [Post 48]

Continuing to read thru and research. Just ran into this link which I further confirms your thoughts Beendare. I will admit I was just thinking KE for my "power" reference, but this page breaks it down further with description of KE vs Momentum...
http://www.realtree.com/kinetic-energy- ... calculator

Then there is this page as well with formulas for those of the technical/nerd persuation..
http://archeryreport.com/2012/01/kineti ... -approach/
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby lamrith » 03 08, 2017 •  [Post 49]

jmez wrote:What type of chrono are you using to get real world numbers at longer distances? No idea how I'd set one up at longer distances and get the arrow through it?

Depends entirely on how consistent a shot you are. My chrono work has always been "muzzle velocity" oriented. I want to know how the arrow is moving coming off the bow.

Down range I have not tried yet though honestly it should not be that difficult other than the nerves of shooting at your $100+ chrono. The chrono's have a \ / window, get the arrow inside that and it should read it. If you can shoot a 4-6" group then you should be ok. Set your Chrono up downrange and an arrow length away for your target. Due to arc of the inbound arrow I would recommend not putting your top shields on the stakes as they could be in harms way. My chrono does well without them when shooting outside depending on weather. Set the chrono so it is centered and 4-6" below Point of aim so you shoot directly over the unit \ ' / and let er rip.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Charina » 03 08, 2017 •  [Post 50]

From the site in your second link, another real world example, albeit again with a significant difference in weight between the two arrows:

"Real world arrow drop over time and distance
To illustrate the above discussion with some real world numbers, I shot two arrows that are identical on the outside, but one was layered with additional weight on the inside. The two arrows are Victory VForce HV arrows, one weighing 326 grains and the other 580 grains. Both were shot from the same bow with the lighter arrow beginning at 316.4 fps and the heavier 243.1 fps.

"I zeroed both arrows to hit dead-on at 20 yards. Then I dropped back to 30 yards, and using the 20 yard pin shot at a vertical line and measured how far the arrow dropped below the line. At 30 yards, the arrow traveling 316.4 fps dropped an average of 3.2″ and the 243.1 fps arrow dropped and average of 7.8″. That’s a fairly big difference!

"Now for an even bigger difference: at 40 yards the faster arrow dropped 10.7″ and the slower arrow 23.7″! Because these arrows were identical on the outside they both experienced exactly the same initial air resistance in the vertical direction. However, because the heavier arrow is going slower, it had more time to accelerate towards the earth and additional time to drop significantly more."
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 08, 2017 •  [Post 51]

jmez wrote:The trajectory has never been an issue for me. ....


^agreed.

Look I'm not here to argue...just giving my take. If you want to shoot a lighter arrow....go for it. If you want to screw on a mech head and hunt due to time constraints...thats fine too- I really don't give a dang.

Try my example in post 43 of shooting the lighter arrow with the bow sighted for the heavy arrow at the same distance to compare....I know the ones questioning this haven't tested as I stated otherwise they would see the flaw in their reasoning.

Same with the calculators....in real life KE and MO continue to rise as you increase arrow weight...some of the calculators still show KE staying the same [heavy vs light] ... not true. The heavy arrow absorbs more of the bows energy...of course it will have more energy.

400gr arrows work no doubt....if it works for you, great! If you are saying its 'Better' ...then please explain your reasoning.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 08, 2017 •  [Post 52]

Charina wrote:.... I don't care if your sight is set high, low, or way off. For every setting of your sight, both arrows are launched at the same attitude, with consistent relative weights, consistent relative speeds, and constant rate of acceleration of gravity. Drop is drop, whether or not starting off with a itsy bitsy tiny weeny change in launch attitude.

.


Think that comment through...and then get back to me. grin

If you make a small change....say 1/16" to your 50 yd pin...you can bet it changes the attitude you launch the arrow from.....AND that 1/16" at your sight might be 12" at the 50 yd target. Tricky...like I said.

The best way I know of to get an idea of how it affects your hunting setup in the field is to check light against the heavy setting...not the other way around as the results are skewed. As I stated, its not perfect....but in this discussion I want to know....."How does this affect my shot on an animal- heavy vs light?"...I think my way is a good comparison....try it before you trash it.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Charina » 03 08, 2017 •  [Post 53]

That is a non-answer to how you propose my understanding of the laws of physics is overcome by simply adjusting the sight for one arrow weight or another. My presumption, based on the intellect shown in your posts, is that you are well beyond intelligent enough to understand I was not referring to change in impact point by change in incremental changes in pin location, as you infer. All things being equal besides arrow weight, and the effects of said difference in weight, moving your sights will not change the relative impact points between the two arrows, is my contention.

Again, more bluntly this time, how do you propose that laws of physics as I understand them don't apply: that the relative drop between two arrows will change upon moving a sight to zero it for one or the other? I'm more than willing, and even anxious, to learn something new that I may be overlooking. Telling me to go try it myself doesn't elucidate a single principal, no matter what the outcomes may be.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 08, 2017 •  [Post 54]

Charina,
It sure seems to me you are basing a lot of your assumptions on data from a calculator...... my real world arrow testing in relation to hunting scenarios doesn't show much difference between the 2 trajectories, YMMV

I am not the guy that is going to argue theoretical physics with you...its above my pay grade. ...In fact, what I SHOULD have stated to avoid silly nitpicking arguments like this is;

You don't need a mathmatical equation to increase an arrows effectiveness....just up your arrow weight- simple [though it sure ticks off the amateur physicists!]

And

Try a a heavier arrow....the small difference in trajectory will surprise you.


There...done!
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 08, 2017 •  [Post 55]

EDITED ON 3.11.17 TO EXPLAIN THIS BETTER...I did a poor job of explaining.
I realize this is counter intuitive....and I've never seen this info published ANYWHERE...so I realize its going to be a bitter pill for those used to using charts and other published criteria.



I get that a lot of guys can't wrap their heads around this, let me explain it this way; I'm talking about what works in real world. A lighter arrow hits an elk appx 1" higher than my heavier arrow at 40 yds....is that significant in what we do? I don't think so. Have you ever tried shooting an arrow 20 gr different? Most can't tell the difference. Now if you roll out the charts and calculators...calcing the exact trajectory differences....why? What i'm interested is real world ...what difference does it make when I put my 30,40,50yd pin on an animal?
WHAT I'M REFERRING TO CAN BE BETTER DESCRIBED AS SLOT TRAJECTORY. A rifle guy shooting 100yd to 250yd shots doesn't sight in his scope to 50yds. That would make his holdover at 250 a lot. If he sights his rifle to 250...he has only a small margin of error at 100-300.

I'm doing the same thing with the test as I described- determining my slot range. So doing as I described [in post 43 I think] the difference in heavy vs light trajectory hardly affects me.

BTW, I do a similar strategy with mt Stickbow...a fixed crawl. Talk about arcing trajectory! Hunting; I shoot my Stickbows at a 25 or 30 yd fixed crawl that puts me on the animal at the slot ranges I shoot, essentially 15-30 yds.

But Beendare...your pin gap is bigger! Yeah....so what does that mean? It means little at the vast majority of the slot distance hunting shots I take. On long shots[ few] I use a RF. We should be measuring trajectory in yardage differential..not inches drop on a chart.WE ARE HUNTING NOT TARGET SHOOTING The ranges I shoot most; 30,40,50 the heavier arrow is an insignificant difference due to line of sight and pin setting. Does the heavier arrow have more arc..YES!!! Does that matter on the shots I take...NO! Try it and I think it will make more sense.

Now if a guy wants to shoot 70,80 yd shots...the difference in trajectory between the heavy/light arrow will be magnified....but who shoots those long shot without a RF anyway?
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Swede » 03 09, 2017 •  [Post 56]

I have not done a 400 gr. versus 500 gr. arrow exact comparison, but I have tried different weight arrows and found the difference much more than one inch at 40 yards. In fact it was one pin gap different. I am wondering if you are shooting a much heavier draw weight bow than I am. I completely agree that the heavier arrow will hit harder and penetrate better than the lite one. My draw weight has been 67 pounds and draw length 27 inches. I have dropped my draw weight to 63 pounds.
Thanks for sharing Beendare. BTW: Are you a commercial fisherman?
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Old school » 03 10, 2017 •  [Post 57]

Swede - I agree with you on how far a heavy arrow drops at 40+ yards, it is significant. I believe that balance is the key and everyone has their definition of balance or compromise. A 400 grain arrow won't penetrate like a 500+grain arrow, but if I misjudge the distance at 40 yards by 10 yards, the 400 grain arrow comes a lot closer to the mark that the 500+ grain arrow, and its more than a few inches.

A lighter arrow gives you flatter trajectory and a bigger margin for error in judging distance - how many elk are lost each year due to a bad shot due to an error in guessing yardage?
A heavier arrow gives you better penetration but less margin for error in judging distance - how many elk are lost each year due to poor penetration?

I don't have all the answers, I just try to find the balance that works for me...

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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Swede » 03 11, 2017 •  [Post 58]

Beendare's edited explanation that 500 grain arrow hit nearly the same spot as 400 grain ones, but 400 grain arrows will shoot way over the critter at 40 yards reminds me of a couple of things I was told over the years.

I had a large chainsaw (Stihl 056 mag) and was planning to cut some wood commercially as well as the 10 cords I cut for our home each year. Rather than beat up my newer 1/2 ton Chevy, I bought a used F250 camper special. It was old and dented, but the running gear and suspension were in good shape. The price was right too, so I got it. Soon after a Chevy guy, without any prompting comes and says I should have bought a Chevy. I told him I got the truck to haul wood and it should handle a load very well. He replies a 1/2 ton Chevy will out haul a 3/4 T Ford. I said a 1/2 Chevy is not rated to haul near as much as the 3/4 ton Ford. His answer was the Chevy will haul a lot more than they are rated for. My thought at the time was, if you prefer Chevys, why not buy one that is rated to do the job you are planning on rather than get an undersized one?

I was logging and a little cold one rainy morning as I and another fellow were just getting started work on the landing. My friend says to me I should have on black wool underwear. I will never forget what he said next. "It does not matter how wet and cold you are; when you are wearing black wool underwear; you are always warm and dry."

These old stories remind me of Beendare's explanation of the virtues of a 500 grain arrow. No doubt, like a heavy duty Chevy or Ford will haul more than a 1/2 T pickup; a 500 grain arrow will hit harder than the lighter 400 grain one. Just set your bow up, including your sights, for whatever arrow you will be using.

Actually the fellow that told me about the black wool underwear was right. Beendare is good with the 500 grain idea too. I just like to harangue him a little.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 11, 2017 •  [Post 59]

^^^ Its cool....I'm willing to wait for you're apology <grin>...as when you ACTUALLY TEST this as recommended...you will see what guys like myself, Mez, Rooise and many others already know about trajectory how it relates to bowhunting. Charts are for rookies bro.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Swede » 03 11, 2017 •  [Post 60]

Part one of an article I had published years ago.

ARROW ENERGY


The other day my package from Cabela’s arrived at home. I was as anxious as a kid on Christmas morning. I wanted to do a little testing, with the chronograph UPS had just delivered. I read through the instruction manual and got things set up. I had two arrows set up to use in the test. The first one was a 350.0 grain Carbon Express CX300 and the second a 500.0 grain Easton aluminum XX75, 2117. I was going to shoot both arrows from the same Martin Phantom bow set at 67 lbs. draw weight, and 27 inch draw length.
The question I wanted to answer was: how much energy does an arrow lose in flight. Over the years, while hunting elk, I have had a penetration problem with light arrows at distances over 40 yards. I have fared better with deer, except on the very first one I tried to shoot.
While eating lunch with my son, Luke early in the 1991 season, we spotted a deer up a steep hill approximately 40 horizontal yards away. This was our first season using compound bows. I knew very little about tuning a bow or making an arrow fly well, but I was full of confidence.
Even though it was a doe, I suggested to Luke that we should try and get the deer. He responded by saying, we wouldn’t have a chance. It was too far away and we had no way to get closer without being detected. At that, I said I could shoot it from where we were. He scoffed. I took that as a challenge. Well, I drew and took careful aim at the deer. After releasing the 2016 Easton aluminum arrow, I watched it make a big arc and hit the deer in the chest cavity.
I was excited, but fortunately I decided not to gloat. The scene we had just witnessed was ample testimony to the fact that I was well on my way to catching up with Chuck Adams and Fred Bear. Fat Chance!
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Swede » 03 11, 2017 •  [Post 61]

PART 2

After finishing our lunch we scrambled up the slope to where the deer had stood when I shot it. To my surprise, the arrow was laying in front of where the deer had been standing. I picked it up and examined it. There was blood on the broadhead but it had penetrated less than an inch. After an extensive search for the deer, I determined it was probably just fine, and we were all maybe a little wiser.
As I considered what had happened, I remembered hearing a little “crack” as the arrow struck the deer. Over the years, when I shoot a large animal, with a light arrow, at distances over 40 yards, I have come to expect bad things when I hear the “crack” of bone. But how much difference does distance really make? This test at home should give me some definitive information.
In this test, I shot both arrows, ten times. Each was shot five times at 0 yards and five times at forty yards. The variation of the arrow speeds in each group of five was never more that one foot per second, from the average. The 350 grain arrow passed through the chronograph at 260 feet per second (52.5 foot pounds per square inch) at 0 yards and 242 feet per second (45.5 foot pounds per square inch) at forty. The drop in kinetic energy was 13.3 percent. The 500 grain arrow was traveling at 224 feet per second (55.7 foot pounds per square inch) at 0 yards and 212 feet per second (49.9 foot pounds per square inch) at forty. The drop in kinetic energy for the heavier arrow was only10.4 percent.
Conclusions: not only did the lighter arrow lose more energy traveling over a given distance, but the heavier arrow arrived at the target, (forty yards from where it left the bow) with more energy than the lighter one had when it left the bow.
Everyone’s skill and equipment is different, and each individual must determine their own effective range. But, no matter how you read the numbers, experience has proven to me, that the farther the distance to the animal being shot at, the greater the risk of just wounding it. Out of respect for my quarry and for the privilege of bow hunting, I have learned to shoot shorter shots than I took at the deer mentioned earlier.
Chuck Adams has always advocated using heavier arrows. Once again, it looks like he is right.

The formula for calculating kinetic energy is velocity in feet per second squared, divided by 450240, times the projectile weight in grains.



John Erickson

Beendare, I understand your point.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Old school » 03 11, 2017 •  [Post 62]

Thanks for that post Swede - that makes an excellent point with hard data to back it up. That is exactly what I had intended to do with my new bow when it arrives on Tuesday :-)

Get it setup and then shoot a "light" arrow at 45 yards using my 40 yard pin and see how much it drops.
Then repeat that same process with a "heavy" arrow. Get it hitting at 40 and use that pin while shooting at 45 and see how big of a difference there is in drop between the light arrow and heavy arrow. I figure that is a real world situation - you step out of the timber, see an elk, don't have time to range him and mis-estimate the yardage as 40 when he was really 45. If the difference in drop between a heavy arrow and a light arrow is only 1" I will no doubt shoot a heavy arrow.

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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Swede » 03 11, 2017 •  [Post 63]

Mitch, what can you tell us about the new bow? What did you order?
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Brendan » 03 11, 2017 •  [Post 64]

There's a lot going on this thread, and a lot of great content. But, a couple things I want to comment on.

Mechanical broadheads. First off, they are not harder to tune. In fact, they are much easier to get to fly correctly and "broadhead tune" than a big fixed blade, but you would have been better off saying, They hide an imperfect tune or an imperfect shot better than a fixed blade. Second, not everyone uses them "To just throw them on and make things easy." Take guys like Randy Ulmer, Tim Gillingham, Levi Morgan, John Dudley. All world class archers, they all shoot mechanicals. Yes - some of them are sponsored, but not all of them. And I don't think any of them would be using the mechanicals they use if they didn't think they'd work. While I agree that a lot of people do throw them on because they can't get their bow tuned correctly and they are easier to shoot better, there's plenty of people who can out-tune and out-shoot any of us, who choose them for other reasons. Third - they're not all created equal. While there are some bad designs out there, there are some damn tough ones, and the same could be said for fixed blades. A good example here of what happens when you use a well designed stainless steel body similar to a fixed blade, with well designed stainless expandable blades, that aren't over the top in terms of cutting diameter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdSHLxF25kk

There are fixed blades I've seen that wouldn't get that type of penetration and hold up like that. I personally have tested certain mechanicals and have been able to blow them through two whitetail shoulder blades stacked on top of each other, and half way through a block target on the other side. Last comment I'll make - imperfect arrow flight isn't always due to your tune. It could be standing on a 30 degree slope in deadfall timber trying to execute a good shot. In cases like this - a mechanical will be more forgiving, and will plane off course less than a fixed blade - simple physics.

All that said - there are scenarios where you absolutely should NOT use a mechanical. Primarily lower energy setups because you are 100% correct that a well designed COC fixed blade with a low angle will penetrate better. But, there are also scenarios where you could argue that a mechanical would be a better choice than a fixed blade. Higher energy setups, longer shots, windier conditions.

One more story - I heard a podcast where they were discussing black bear hunting. No, it's not Elk, but one guide went on record of saying that he wanted his clients using as big of a mechanical broadhead as possible, because he'd seen the thick hair / hide of a bear and the fat plug up a hole, no blood, lose the bear too often, where it just didn't happen as often with the big mechanicals.

There is no one size fits all - just wanted to add those additional points for context, and I think it's important for people to try to learn that each fixed blade and mechanical will be better under certain conditions.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Old school » 03 11, 2017 •  [Post 65]

I buy a new bow every 12 years whether I need one or not :-)

I bought a last years model - Bowtech Prodigy. Dealer was trying to clear out last years models to make room for the new models. I believe I got a very good deal - $650 out the door. Shoots around 340+ fps so it will be interesting to see how it shoots compared to my current bow - Buckmaster G2.

That's why I'm intrigued by this thread. My old bow shot 245 fps with my hunting arrow - roughly 410 grain. With this new bow I figure I'll shoot about 300 fps with a hunting weight arrow, so if I bumped up to 500+ grain I'd still probably get better trajectory than I currently do and I'd get the additional penetration. I still may do the test I was talking about with the 40-45 yard shots with the light arrow and a heavy one just to see. I've got a 29.5" draw length and will be shooting 65#

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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Brendan » 03 11, 2017 •  [Post 66]

Beendare wrote:
Image

Its interesting to note....the tiniest bit of off angle strike makes a big difference in arrow force...exaggerated in my diagram.


Wanted to hit this while we're at it too. This scenario won't happen past very short yardages unless you have a real serious issue... Why? Vanes... What happens when an arrow leaves the bow off angle is that it begins to plane off course, and then stabilizes due to the drag, and the rotational stabilization of the vanes, and then settles into perfect flight. Granted, it's not on the original intended course, and it has lost some energy stabilizing, but it will not strike off angle unless you're extremely close, or you have some more serious issues that send an arrow "Porpoising" down range to the extent that the vanes cannot correct for it. Think about it - this is a big reason everyone says to just run big vanes, lots of helical - to stabilize a less than perfect shot more quickly... So yes, this can be an issue, but I think where the arrow hits is the bigger issue than "how" the arrow hits.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 12, 2017 •  [Post 67]

Old school wrote:Thanks for that post Swede - that makes an excellent point with hard data to back it up.

--Mitch



Actually Swede...with all due respect...your conclusion in you test in post 60,61 is wrong. Bad math or poor chrono...something. [EDIT; NO, that is a good test! YES the heavier arrow absorbs/ holds more energy]



KE and Mo continue to rise as arrow weight increases...its just physics bro. I've confirmed it with at least 3 bows I've owned....and here is a link to a good test/explanation
http://archeryreport.com/2009/11/arrow-kinetic-energy-momentum-archer/

Mitch ...please explain how Mech heads are easier to tune than Fixed....without destroying any.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Old school » 03 12, 2017 •  [Post 68]

Beendare - I think you are confusing me with someone else as I haven't commented about at all regarding mechanical vs fixed head testing.

My comments have been in regards to a heavy arrow vs a lighter arrow and the tradeoff between trajectory and penetration. I'm not concerned with a bigger pin gap - hold the right pin on him and you hit your mark. I believe I brought up a real world hunting situation where you misestimate yardage. What happens then with a heavy arrow vs a lighter one? I plan on testing a heavy arrow and lighter arrow out of my new bow once it arrives and I'll post my findings. Ultimately I want the best setup to kill an elk and I believe trajectory is a valid variable to consider along with penetration.

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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Brendan » 03 13, 2017 •  [Post 69]

Beendare wrote:
...please explain how Mech heads are easier to tune than Fixed....without destroying any.


That was me, not Mitch...

In my mind - tuning has nothing to do with the head, as long as it is a quality head that spins true and is of the same weight as your field tips. A perfectly tuned bow and arrow system (including the shooter) will shoot field points, mech heads, and fixed blades to the same point of impact until you start to get longer range where wind / drag effects can impact the larger profile heads more. At 30 yards and under - I can throw bare shafts into the mix as well.

Where you see a difference is forgiveness. In general, field points are the most forgiving of an imperfect tune or imperfect form, followed by mech heads, followed by fixed blades, because of their aerodynamic profile and their ability to plane off course. So - in general, mech heads will "Broadhead Tune" to the same point of impact easier than a fixed blade (But to your earlier point, that may or may not equate to perfect arrow flight). But, even within a broadhead type - some heads are more forgiving. Looking at fixed blades: I've had great luck with Wac 'Em shooting closer to my field points on an imperfect shot, as well as Solid, with Shuttle-T close behind. I tried the VPA 3-blade, and while I love the design they do not group as consistently for me when I make a bad shot.

Your "Without Destroying Any" comment. I practice with mechanicals without destroying them, but I do replace all blades and replaceable components before hunting with a head I've used for practice. Also, I do not practice with every head I hunt with, no need. I do spin test, check runout, and make sure all blades are working smoothly, etc. Same with fixed blades - I don't practice with every head I intend to hunt with, same process as above.

Personally? I shoot both depending on the scenario.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Old school » 03 13, 2017 •  [Post 70]

Swede wrote:PART 2


In this test, I shot both arrows, ten times. Each was shot five times at 0 yards and five times at forty yards. The variation of the arrow speeds in each group of five was never more that one foot per second, from the average. The 350 grain arrow passed through the chronograph at 260 feet per second (52.5 foot pounds per square inch) at 0 yards and 242 feet per second (45.5 foot pounds per square inch) at forty. The drop in kinetic energy was 13.3 percent. The 500 grain arrow was traveling at 224 feet per second (55.7 foot pounds per square inch) at 0 yards and 212 feet per second (49.9 foot pounds per square inch) at forty. The drop in kinetic energy for the heavier arrow was only10.4 percent.
Conclusions: not only did the lighter arrow lose more energy traveling over a given distance, but the heavier arrow arrived at the target, (forty yards from where it left the bow) with more energy than the lighter one had when it left the bow.

Chuck Adams has always advocated using heavier arrows. Once again, it looks like he is right.

The formula for calculating kinetic energy is velocity in feet per second squared, divided by 450240, times the projectile weight in grains.

John Erickson

Beendare, I understand your point.


Beendare - I've copied Swede's post and I think maybe you misread it. In his testing the heavier arrow does have the higher KE than the light arrow. The KE just obviously drops as the distance increases and the speed decreases for either arrow. I think he was actually backing up the point you were trying to make.

Heavy Arrow - 55.7 at bow, 49.9 at 40 yards
Light Arrow - 52.5 at bow, 45.5 at 40 yards

--Mitch
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby jmez » 03 13, 2017 •  [Post 71]

Brendan wrote:
Beendare wrote:
Image

Its interesting to note....the tiniest bit of off angle strike makes a big difference in arrow force...exaggerated in my diagram.


Wanted to hit this while we're at it too. This scenario won't happen past very short yardages unless you have a real serious issue... Why? Vanes... What happens when an arrow leaves the bow off angle is that it begins to plane off course, and then stabilizes due to the drag, and the rotational stabilization of the vanes, and then settles into perfect flight. Granted, it's not on the original intended course, and it has lost some energy stabilizing, but it will not strike off angle unless you're extremely close, or you have some more serious issues that send an arrow "Porpoising" down range to the extent that the vanes cannot correct for it. Think about it - this is a big reason everyone says to just run big vanes, lots of helical - to stabilize a less than perfect shot more quickly... So yes, this can be an issue, but I think where the arrow hits is the bigger issue than "how" the arrow hits.



The arrow stabilizes in flight but that doesn't necessarily mean it hits the target square. If you don't BH tune your bow, very common, then your arrow is going to strike the target at some sort of angle. If your BH's are say hitting right of your FP's then your arrow is flying nock left, etc. This scenario is magnified at longer yardages even with minor tuning problems. Most all heads will hit together, or pretty close at 20 yards. The farther out you get the farther apart they get.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Brendan » 03 13, 2017 •  [Post 72]

jmez wrote:The arrow stabilizes in flight but that doesn't necessarily mean it hits the target square. If you don't BH tune your bow, very common, then your arrow is going to strike the target at some sort of angle. If your BH's are say hitting right of your FP's then your arrow is flying nock left, etc. This scenario is magnified at longer yardages even with minor tuning problems. Most all heads will hit together, or pretty close at 20 yards. The farther out you get the farther apart they get.


I don't think this is right except in close range or more extreme circumstances. Let's say an arrow leaves the bow nock left. Your arrow is no longer flying "nock left" once it stabilizes as it gets further from the bow. The vanes take over, stabilize the arrow into straight flight due to the rotation and the drag. The reason it doesn't hit with your field points is that it has stabilized on a different path / vector from the bow. That's why if you paper tune at different ranges - you'll show a nock left tear up close but a bullet hole the further away from the bow you get....
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby jmez » 03 13, 2017 •  [Post 73]

Good point and I hadn't thought of it like that. You may be correct. I've never shot through paper at longer distances. Never shot through paper with a broadhead either.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby olympushunt » 03 13, 2017 •  [Post 74]

Old school wrote:
Swede wrote:PART 2


In this test, I shot both arrows, ten times. Each was shot five times at 0 yards and five times at forty yards. The variation of the arrow speeds in each group of five was never more that one foot per second, from the average. The 350 grain arrow passed through the chronograph at 260 feet per second (52.5 foot pounds per square inch) at 0 yards and 242 feet per second (45.5 foot pounds per square inch) at forty. The drop in kinetic energy was 13.3 percent. The 500 grain arrow was traveling at 224 feet per second (55.7 foot pounds per square inch) at 0 yards and 212 feet per second (49.9 foot pounds per square inch) at forty. The drop in kinetic energy for the heavier arrow was only10.4 percent.
Conclusions: not only did the lighter arrow lose more energy traveling over a given distance, but the heavier arrow arrived at the target, (forty yards from where it left the bow) with more energy than the lighter one had when it left the bow.

Chuck Adams has always advocated using heavier arrows. Once again, it looks like he is right.

The formula for calculating kinetic energy is velocity in feet per second squared, divided by 450240, times the projectile weight in grains.

John Erickson

Beendare, I understand your point.


Beendare - I've copied Swede's post and I think maybe you misread it. In his testing the heavier arrow does have the higher KE than the light arrow. The KE just obviously drops as the distance increases and the speed decreases for either arrow. I think he was actually backing up the point you were trying to make.

Heavy Arrow - 55.7 at bow, 49.9 at 40 yards
Light Arrow - 52.5 at bow, 45.5 at 40 yards

--Mitch


Exactly Mitch!

Those results are not the result of bad math or a bad chrono. They are what you would expect to find. A heavier arrow will hold its energy longer.
This isn't the result of amateur physics.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Brendan » 03 13, 2017 •  [Post 75]

jmez wrote:Good point and I hadn't thought of it like that. You may be correct. I've never shot through paper at longer distances. Never shot through paper with a broadhead either.


I think it depends on how off-center the arrow is. If it's just a little bit of a tear - it should stabilize pretty quickly. That said - I've had scenarios where I've gotten rest / vane contact and the arrow is porpoising out of control all the way to the target and definitely impacts the target at an off angle. I think it's a minor detail though - I think we all agree the more perfect you can get your arrow flight, the better, regardless of what broadhead you choose. You lose less energy stabilizing the arrow, and it stays on track better between field point and broadhead.

You all have me thinking though. I want to do some trajectory testing at my range when this damn snow clears out. I have two bows and two arrow combinations I'm shooting right now. A 330 IBO bow, and a 350 IBO bow, shooting either a ~430gr or ~490gr arrow. I could even make the former 405gr if I put on a 100gr point and do a bunch of comparisons at varying ranges. I may even have some gold tip velocity arrows which would be even lighter, although I'd have to check the spine.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 13, 2017 •  [Post 76]

Old school wrote:
Swede wrote:Beendare - I've copied Swede's post and I think maybe you misread it. In his testing the heavier arrow does have the higher KE than the light arrow. The KE just obviously drops as the distance increases and the speed decreases for either arrow. I think he was actually backing up the point you were trying to make.

Heavy Arrow - 55.7 at bow, 49.9 at 40 yards
Light Arrow - 52.5 at bow, 45.5 at 40 yards

--Mitch


Yes, I did [skim] misread it...MY BAD...and my apologies to Swede which after reading the whole thing was a very good illustration of how the heavier arrow holds its energy better.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Old school » 03 13, 2017 •  [Post 77]

While we are speaking of testing arrows of various weights and also discussing the purpose of vanes, it got me to thinking. The vanes stabilize the arrow and help "correct" it out of a less than perfectly tuned bow. So with that said, Will a 4" vane stabilize the flight of the arrow more quickly than a 2" blazer?

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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 13, 2017 •  [Post 78]

Old school wrote:While we are speaking of testing arrows of various weights and also discussing the purpose of vanes, it got me to thinking. The vanes stabilize the arrow and help "correct" it out of a less than perfectly tuned bow. So with that said, Will a 4" vane stabilize the flight of the arrow more quickly than a 2" blazer?

--Mitch


Quicker.....theoretically it should. I do know that from a tuned bow....you don't need a boatload of fletching....its just added drag that flys worse in crosswind and longer range.

What is enough?.................now THAT would be a contentious thread!

I've had good results from many different configurations. Those Blazers do a good job....as does 3" arizonas, FF 360's, 4" vanes[many]. I shoot that big VPA 150gr 3 blade in both my compound and my recurve....the Blazers do a good job in the compound and 4" feathers work well in the recurve. A guy with perfect form and tuned bow doesn't benefit from added fletch like a guy with less perfect form or a poor tune would. In general, I think a little extra on a hunting arrow is a good thing....erring on the side of more vs less probably has more positives than negative...but YMMV....depends a lot on the shooter. I've tested Blazers with helical vs Blazers on a 2 deg offset and there is no difference that I could tell anyway. I tested the Blazers when they came out and switched from the FF 360's...as I recall, the difference was only on very long shots.

I can tell you there is a significant difference between the 4" and 5" feathers. Those arrows with 5" feathers appear to drop like a rock at even medium distances.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Old school » 03 13, 2017 •  [Post 79]

Beendare wrote:
Old school wrote:While we are speaking of testing arrows of various weights and also discussing the purpose of vanes, it got me to thinking. The vanes stabilize the arrow and help "correct" it out of a less than perfectly tuned bow. So with that said, Will a 4" vane stabilize the flight of the arrow more quickly than a 2" blazer?

--Mitch


Quicker.....theoretically it should. I do know that from a tuned bow....you don't need a boatload of fletching....its just added drag that flys worse in crosswind and longer range.

What is enough?.................now THAT would be a contentious thread!

I've had good results from many different configurations. Those Blazers do a good job....as does 3" arizonas, FF 360's, 4" vanes[many]. I shoot that big VPA 150gr 3 blade in both my compound and my recurve....the Blazers do a good job in the compound and 4" feathers work well in the recurve. A guy with perfect form and tuned bow doesn't benefit from added fletch like a guy with less perfect form or a poor tune would. In general, I think a little extra on a hunting arrow is a good thing....erring on the side of more vs less probably has more positives than negative...but YMMV....depends a lot on the shooter. I've tested Blazers with helical vs Blazers on a 2 deg offset and there is no difference that I could tell anyway. I tested the Blazers when they came out and switched from the FF 360's...as I recall, the difference was only on very long shots.

I can tell you there is a significant difference between the 4" and 5" feathers. Those arrows with 5" feathers appear to drop like a rock at even medium distances.


I shoot 5" feathers on my wood arrows out of my longbow and also 4" feathers on some Gold Tip naturals, and yes, there is a world of difference between the two. My compound, 2" blazers.

--Mitch
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby lamrith » 03 14, 2017 •  [Post 80]

Beendare wrote:[b]
WHAT I'M REFERRING TO CAN BE BETTER DESCRIBED AS SLOT TRAJECTORY. A rifle guy shooting 100yd to 250yd shots doesn't sight in his scope to 50yds. That would make his holdover at 250 a lot. If he sights his rifle to 250...he has only a small margin of error at 100-300.


Sounds like what Rifle folks call Point Blank Range (PBR), and also the associated Max Point Blank Range(MPBR). It varies by caliber or weapon, but typically the shooter will decide what their target "kill zone" is.. SO say 8" kill zone, that means +/-4" Then they will set their sights so the bullet stays within that +/- range from 0-xxxyrds. Lets them point center of target and shoot...

Something like that requires knowing ballistic coefficient which for our arrows is completely unknown and why it can be difficult (impossible) to calculate drop for an arrow...
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 03 22, 2017 •  [Post 81]

lamrith wrote:Sounds like what Rifle folks call MBR, Mean Battle Range. ....


Hey, thanks for that Lam....appreciate it.

Thats nice to know....so maybe next time I can explain this in a more concise less rambling manner!
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Wahpeton » 04 08, 2017 •  [Post 82]

Beendare,

Awesome write up on the WHY of the perfect hunting arrow.
Gets a guy thinking.

What you put together for thoughts would be a couple months worth of technical column in any reputable bowhunting mag.

Thanks for taking the time to pull together and for putting yourself "out there"
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby lamrith » 04 10, 2017 •  [Post 83]

Beendare wrote:
lamrith wrote:Sounds like what Rifle folks call MBR, Mean Battle Range. ....


Hey, thanks for that Lam....appreciate it.

Thats nice to know....so maybe next time I can explain this in a more concise less rambling manner!

No problem, though actually I need to correct myself. Looking around to get some visual aids for this concept I realized it is actually called Point Blank Range (PBR) and ties with Maximum Point Blank Range (MPBR). The idea as mentioned it so set your weapon's site so that your veritical ballistic trajectory stays inside the kill zone for the longest distance possible. Usually this means setting so that the peak of your trajectory is X inches above point of Aim (POA) and that X = 1/2 the height of the kill zone.

Here is a decent write-up on it. I have not read all of that one, but the ballistic graph I always found made the concept easier to understand.
http://www.backcountrychronicles.com/ma ... ank-range/
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby lamrith » 04 10, 2017 •  [Post 84]

BEENDARE - So a follow up to you original post.. Are you referring to this PBR being only a little different heavy vs light arrow in your original post about them only being 1" different? I will have to tinker with that and see. I still lean toward a faster arrow personally, but it is worth looking at and trying during the off season.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Barnesnbow » 04 11, 2017 •  [Post 85]

Are most guys that shoot fixed blades using four fletch?
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Swede » 04 11, 2017 •  [Post 86]

Welcome to the forum Barnesnbow. I still stick with three 4 inch fletch. I have been thinking of switching to the shorter 2 inch taller vanes, but would stick with just three. I have not had a tuning issue, so why change?
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 04 13, 2017 •  [Post 87]

Lam,
Slot trajectory or PBR as you call it tells you what works in the real world. Test as i suggest and you will see a tiny difference between heavy and light arrows, not enough difference to matter on a hunting shot.

I'm surprised nobody's done this yet, Cmon guys!?

Re 4 fletch: you don't need much fletching with a tuned bow. But 4 fletch is not a bad idea as it makes it impossible to put your arrow on the string wrong
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Swede » 04 13, 2017 •  [Post 88]

Beendare makes a good point about 4 fletch. I never thought about it as I spend most of my time in a tree and I have plenty of time to place my arrow in the string correctly. I use a drop away rest and set everything before I sit down to start my wait. If something comes around I pick up my bow with the arrow already nocked and ready.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 04 13, 2017 •  [Post 89]

I have always "came back" to 4 fletch arrows for my own reasons. I do like the idea of never having to determine if you have em on the string right, and, I think they stabilize the arrow quicker, seem to be more accurate on longer shots, and (gasp) make up a bit for perhaps a less than perfect release. When I shot fingers (for many, many years) I found this to be true but even since deploying my first mech release some 7-8 years ago, it seems to ring true also. I'm not a very bow techy guy so I may be off on this :? . RJ
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Wahpeton » 04 13, 2017 •  [Post 90]

Guys,

I shoot a standard three fletch blazer set up. I don't see a difference paying attention to arrow orientation at all with cock fletch up or down as far as my groups go out to 80 yards. I practice out to 80, but the farthest I have shot game is 32 yards. I'm shooting Ice cream pail size groups at 80.

I'm shooting a relatively heavy arrow - 570 grains total weight with a FOC of 17%. 200 spine GT Kinetic.

I am shooting a QAD drop away. Maybe the drop away helps to negate the influence of fletching orientation?

Prior to shooting my current set up with the drop away, I shot a whisker biscuit, but I really never practiced past 40 yards and I did pay attention to fletch orientation.

I've never shot a 4 fletch arrow, but based on my observations of 3 fletch orientation not influencing groups, I don't know why I would?

Way more questions and observations that may not mean anything to anybody, but I felt I wanted to share.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Beendare » 04 13, 2017 •  [Post 91]

I think wehpon in post 90 hit on something he is doing that is crucial. Essentially "know your setup" inside and out. He not only knows his capabilities but he knows what the capabilities are when he puts the arrow on upside down(goofproof)- impressive. You dont have to do it like someone else.... but by gawd, know why you are doing it.

It seems to me the guys that are thoughtful like that are more successful, ymmv
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Brendan » 04 14, 2017 •  [Post 92]

Here are some other points for 4-fletch to illustrate that it always depends.

Theoretically using 4 fletches allows you to use a lower profile and shorter vane, which gives you a lower lateral area, and less wind drift.

But, switching to 4 fletch won't always stabilize the arrow better - it depends on which fletchings, and if straight, offset or helical. I tried what I suggested above last year - went to 4 of a pretty short, low profile vane, fletched 1 degree offset. Guess what? They didn't stabilize the fixed blade broadheads nearly as well as my 3" helical fletched arrows. So yes, they would have had less wind drift - but my bad shots were much less consistent.

For me - so far the happy medium has been 3 helical fletched 3-inch vanes. Would 4 of these work? Yes - absolutely - but with more drag 'd see increased drop and less energy as ranges increased without a benefit in stabilization.

I personally think this is another area where you have to test and then go with what works for you.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby lamrith » 04 14, 2017 •  [Post 93]

Beendare wrote:Lam,
I'm surprised nobody's done this yet, Cmon guys!?

Not sure about others, but weather out here has been complete and utter $hit show. Nonstop rain to point I would need waders to be outside and shoot in my home range...
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby lamrith » 05 02, 2017 •  [Post 94]

Interesting video that illustrates the idea that penetration is more than just pure KE number. Underlying mass has influence on penetration too.

Just caught this video of FB. Looked around a bit and didn't find it elsewhere, so can only link to FB video. Unfortunately it is silent so we do not have any # or data we can use to compare the actual KE numbers, but pretty telling video.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Charina » 05 02, 2017 •  [Post 95]

Dr Ashby goes over that example a bit in his writeup. And it's a bit unfair of an example for penetration due to the expanding nature of lead slugs. The slug is stopped because of changed sectional density. The arrow doesn't change its sectional density. Fundamentally different designs.

But it sure is a very interesting illustration! Thanks for posting.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby pointysticks » 05 19, 2017 •  [Post 96]

bullets and arrows are from different planets :D
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Roosiebull » 05 19, 2017 •  [Post 97]

I got a dozen new gold tips the other day, total arrow weight 480 grains, 30 more than last year, and there is a noticeable difference even with that little bit of weight, I was happy about that...planned on over 500 grains...that will have to be next year.

Quieted my already quiet bow, arrows deeper in the Reinhart for sure, and cleaned up the rest of my broadhead tune, I had it close before new arrows, without doing anything, impact is exactly the same...according to spine charts, I am 2 sizes over spined.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby 1Elkhunter » 06 23, 2017 •  [Post 98]

For the past 10 years, I've archery hunted with a 55lb (at my DL of 29.5") Fox Archery-High Sierra 60" TD Recurve w/a Fastflight string. My total arrow weight is right around 600g, with 300 of that being on the front end with a 100g brass insert and a 200g VPA 2 blade broadhead (shaving sharp). I limit shots on big animals (like Elk) to 20 yds most days... 25 if everything is perfect... Now, no doubt my arrows move really really really slow, but when they finally do arrive at their destination they hit and penetrate with real authority (like a brick through a plate glass window) Tuning a Recurve is pretty simple... so long as your brace height and knock location are correct, it really comes down to tuning the ARROW, which starts with the correct spine shafts. Then figure out the proper point weight/FOC and your arrows will group (assuming you can shoot well instinctively with a primitive bow)... I'm still working on that one, as in consistent shooting routine, form, anchor, release, follow through, etc. if I do my part I can shoot 4" groups pretty consistent at 20 yds... most of the time (Bourbon helps). Good enough for MOE (minute of elk). My observation is that we all tend to assign way to much importance to the gear, and not enough on the shooter. Shot placement, IMO, is way underrated these days and trumps virtually everything else in the killing paradigm.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Old school » 07 15, 2017 •  [Post 99]

My setup is complete and here is how it all finished out. 29.5" Carbon Express Mutiny 350 arrows with a 125 grain 2 blade Magnus solid blade broadhead (classics). Finished arrow weight comes in at a little over 500 grains and I'm still pushing 275 fps even with that weight. Should be a penetrating setup on an elk if I connect this year.

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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby stealthycat » 07 19, 2017 •  [Post 100]

I've killed a few bulls with archery - back in the 1990's using a High Country Excalibur which is much less power generated than today's bows. I'm a 95% bowhunter, been doing it many years now.

My current setup is an Xpedition bow, 63#, my arrows are 502 grains IIRC completed, and they fly 295 ish

I only shoot them this way because they fly so well .... I'd rather get to 600 grains to be honest, heavier is better and as I look back at my deer and elk and bear I've killed, maybe 25 yards was the farthest shots. I don't need a super flat shooting bow, I'm not taking a 40-50 beyond shots. Now I did kill my antelope at like 65 yards.

My broadhead choice ... I like a 2 blade COI head best, but right now, my Slick Tricks are what I'm shooting. They've never failed me in any way, super tough, sharp and they fly great.

If I were elk hunting this fall with archery, I'd try and figure a way to get my total weight to 600 grains but I won't sacrifice perfect flight to get there
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby lamrith » 07 19, 2017 •  [Post 101]

stealthycat wrote:I've killed a few bulls with archery - back in the 1990's using a High Country Excalibur which is much less power generated than today's bows. I'm a 95% bowhunter, been doing it many years now.

My current setup is an Xpedition bow, 63#, my arrows are 502 grains IIRC completed, and they fly 295 ish

I only shoot them this way because they fly so well .... I'd rather get to 600 grains to be honest, heavier is better and as I look back at my deer and elk and bear I've killed, maybe 25 yards was the farthest shots. I don't need a super flat shooting bow, I'm not taking a 40-50 beyond shots. Now I did kill my antelope at like 65 yards.

My broadhead choice ... I like a 2 blade COI head best, but right now, my Slick Tricks are what I'm shooting. They've never failed me in any way, super tough, sharp and they fly great.

If I were elk hunting this fall with archery, I'd try and figure a way to get my total weight to 600 grains but I won't sacrifice perfect flight to get there


You say you do not need a super flat shooting bow, but you are shooting one. That is really fast for such a heavy arrow and those will fly nice and flat. I am curious Expedition do you have @63# that is shooting so fast? My Elite (not speed bow) @ 63# is about the same speed arrow, but only a 400grn, 500grn would drop to 260fps range. If I could shoot 500grn and keep 290+ I would totally do it.
'15 Elite E35. 30.5", 67#
100Gr. G5 montecs
Sportsman's Vital Impact 300spine

http://www.pelletpeddler.com
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby stealthycat » 07 19, 2017 •  [Post 102]

Xplorer model

I can weigh the arrows again to make sure I'm remembering right .... maybe they were 400 grains total vs 500 grains?
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby stealthycat » 07 19, 2017 •  [Post 103]

they weight 432 grains +/- on my cheap kitchen scale
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby lamrith » 07 20, 2017 •  [Post 104]

Finally looked up your bow. You got a little rocket ship there! 355ibo rating Your arrow speeds are right in line given the bow speed. very nice!
'15 Elite E35. 30.5", 67#
100Gr. G5 montecs
Sportsman's Vital Impact 300spine

http://www.pelletpeddler.com
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby stealthycat » 07 21, 2017 •  [Post 105]

I shot a Mathews Drenalin for several years ....

its a PSE ThunderFlite compared to this Xplorer and by that I mean it leaves behind technology, speed and how it shoots etc. Absolutely dead in the hand at the shot, whisper quiet ..... new compounds are radically different than the ones made 5 years ago

when I get ready for new arrows, I'd still like to move to over 500 grains :mrgreen:
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Old school » 07 25, 2017 •  [Post 106]

I had a High Country Excalibur as well many years ago. Bought it at a Gander Mountain when I lived up in Michigan. Sold it about 5 years ago, hard to part with it even though I hadn't used it in years, it was kind of like family to me :-)

My new Bowtech isn't quite as fast as I'd hoped, but shooting a 500 grain arrow has something to do with that though. I'm sacrificing some trajectory/speed for better penetration and arrow flight.

--Mitch
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Roosiebull » 09 24, 2018 •  [Post 107]

bringing this back to the top with some conversation material.


I was shooting 300 spine axis loaded up in the front with weight, with 150gr broadheads, they were 642gr they fly insanely well, very forgiving, and the loss in trajectory is not as bad as one would think.


the lesson I learned is don't become over confident in your equipment, I shot a really big bull at under 10 yds, hugged the shoulder tighter than I normally would (though even with light arrows, I have never had that part of the scapula stop an arrow) I was shooting down hill, and I was just shooting for the most center lung shot I could get, and shot.


he shuffled off a few yds, then just started walking, he was still really close, but the brush was really thick, I could just see his antlers, and I was waiting for him to tip over. the bull came up on a little rise 130yds out, and I see the entrance through my binos, "how is he still on his feet??!!" he disappears again, then I hear something below and to the left, sneak around, and see it's him, still slowly walking, then goes to the right and disappears again.


about 10 minutes later a cow feeds out where he went, and then a bull starts lighting off, and getting really worked up, this went on for about 45 minutes. I ended up giving the bull 2 hrs because something wasn't right, and I figured that bugling bull ran him off.


went to go start tracking and found my arrow, broadhead came apart, no penetration (maybe 2" of the shaft) I tracked that bull all day, and followed his tracks right to where that bull was bugling....it was him the whole time. seemed like a big coincidence, but I figured it was impossible, because at that time I knew he was dead.....finally jumped him out of bed around 3, almost got a shot but the only shot I had was facing away. I had just created an angle and he took off.


2 days later i saw him back with his cows, then again Friday. he didn't even have a limp or nothing. i have no idea the actual dynamics at play, but the arrow didn't make it through the very back of the scapula (honestly it seems impossible i hit the scapula with the shot placement, but i had to have i guess. i have had 380gr arrows go through the off side of the scapula in the thicker part more than once.


moral of the story, heavier has MANY benefits vs light, but DO NOT get over confident in your heavy arrows, they still aren't a 30 cal magnum bullet, hitting the shoulder is bad news. i got over confident, i wasn't aiming for scapula, but i wasn't trying to avoid it at all cost either, and paid the price.


i ended up shooting a nice 5pt, shot him twice, both shots steep quartering away, and both shots had 5-6" of fletchings sticking out. don't get over confident, heavy arrows aren't magic. if i was shooting 400gr arrows i would expect no worse results. heavy is good, but the gain, like loss of trajectory isn't crazy... the differences aren't crazy.


the cool thing was both bulls didn't run off, they DON'T react to the shot, the arrow hitting them doesn't seem to spook them much, i am thinking loud bows do, even a point blank shoulder shot got very little reaction, so that part is really cool.


the shoulder shot was with 150gr buzzcut, one of my favorite heads, but they don't hold up to shoulders. i was pretty disappointed, but finally took responsibility myself. i do think if the head stayed together i would have watched that bull die quick, but it was easily avoided.


i decided to stick with them the rest of the season, and both heads i put in that 5pt held up perfect, and still pretty sharp. will be switching exclusively to kudu 150gr next year, and will drop down to about 550gr arrows for a good middle of the road arrow weight. just hoping someone can learn from my mistakes, give the shoulder of an elk some credit.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Swede » 09 24, 2018 •  [Post 108]

Roosiebull wrote:I was shooting down hill


I think there could be a big part of the problem. Shooting down makes a big difference. Arrows slide down the bone and do not penetrate like they do when they hit head-on. I don't like to admit or discuss it much, but it has happened to me at least twice and I think three times. The good thing is that I don't think the elk are hurt much. You just get to waste a day or two looking for an elk that you will not find.
When shooting down, hold a little farther back than you would if you were shooting on the level or upwards.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Roosiebull » 09 24, 2018 •  [Post 109]

Swede wrote:
Roosiebull wrote:I was shooting down hill


I think there could be a big part of the problem. Shooting down makes a big difference. Arrows slide down the bone and do not penetrate like they do when they hit head-on. I don't like to admit or discuss it much, but it has happened to me at least twice and I think three times. The good thing is that I don't think the elk are hurt much. You just get to waste a day or two looking for an elk that you will not find.
When shooting down, hold a little farther back than you would if you were shooting on the level or upwards.

yeah, I think there are a couple take aways from this experience. one part that really bothered me is what would have happened if the head didn't break? I feel like it would have made it through, but of course it's speculation.

I just didn't give it much thought at the time, I shot one in a similar spot several years ago, shooting 62lb and 380gr arrow, and it went through both scapulas in that same portion of the scapula. I have went through the off side several times in the thicker part, I didn't even consider that part stopping a 642gr arrow if I did hit it, and I must have just caught the very back. looking at several anatomy pics it looks like I cleared it by 2-3" but the situation said otherwise. I watched him a while through binos, the shot looked perfect to me as far as how he was standing.


Swede, that is good to know, and angles could change the dynamics. the angle was nowhere as extreme as shooting out of a stand, he was probably 5 feet below me, and about 7-9yds away.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Swede » 09 24, 2018 •  [Post 110]

Roosie, I am beginning to think it doesn't take as much down angle as I would have thought just a few years ago.
I had one hit the scapula this season with the same result. The elk had its head down and was using the front leg to scratch it when I released the arrow. The scapula was angled a little back because of the leg position, and I held too tight to the front leg. I am troubled by the experience as I and my partners hunted for hours and never found a drop of blood or the arrow. I know the shot looked good at just 8-10 yards, and I heard it hit. Two days later a fellow that knew we were looking for a wounded elk reported seeing a 6 inch pool of blood a mile and a half away. I too wish I knew fully what happened.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Roosiebull » 09 24, 2018 •  [Post 111]

you very well could be right. I know I will avoid it at all cost in the future. it sucks, the angle it was quartering to me was almost broadside, I could have shot a few inches back and still got both lungs, I just didn't. I guess I was just over confident in my equipment, at the end of the day, they are still arrows, and not a 400gr chunk of lead going 2500fps.


no reason at all I didn't kill that bull other than complacence. i'm not bummed because it was a really big one, I was bummed I hit one and didn't recover it. takes some of the fun out of the season, and introduces stress. what if I shoot another and make a marginal shot? it becomes a pretty big burden.


I was pretty amazed and feeling blessed I ended up with one this year, I had accepted it wasn't happening, I had my chance. i'm surprised that bull isn't even limping, when that head broke, it must have robbed all the energy at once.


I will be considerate of angles in the future, and avoid the scapula, no reason to play with that. my confidence got pretty low, getting so lucky not losing my bull last year, then that.... gotta really be on your game shooting them with a bow. there were so many years in a row it seemed easy, arrows seemed so deadly.... the last couple years have kind of taken that away. hope to get that feeling back in the next couple years. easier to do well when you are confident in your equipment and ability, I miss that feeling. there was a good few years when I knew if I let an arrow go, I would either see or hear it die, makes it easier to make a good shot with that confidence.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Roosiebull » 09 24, 2018 •  [Post 112]

I am also going to add footers to my arrows next year, I want a very tough arrow. those kudu heads are bullet proof, sharp as heck, stay sharp, and made about an hour from my house, small scale by a really nice guy. i'm gonna stick with axis arrows, they seem as good as it gets for me, will shoot 6 fletch again, just because I see no reason to change, I don't know if they are a reason the arrows with broadheads are so forgiving, but they might be, and they don't hurt flight.

I want to get a bow that is a little lighter and well balanced, but seeing their reaction to the lack of noise is pretty impressive, I guess we'll see what bows hit the market in the next couple months. I sure like quiet, it seems to matter.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Fozziebear2000 » 09 28, 2018 •  [Post 113]

Roosie and Swede, thx for being willing to share some challenging moments. Really helpful to me as I gauge proper confidence in the heavier arrows I have been developing. The comments on slight quartering fwd and downhill shots are meaningful as well.


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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Lone Coyote » 12 17, 2018 •  [Post 114]

Beendare wrote:BUILDING A HUNTING ARROW
I’m going to walk through the process I use for setting up a hunting arrow. Along the way I’m going to give my opinion of arrow weight, spine, FOC, BH’s and tuning. These are my opinions based on my 30+ years of seeing hundreds of critters of all sizes die to an arrow….including over 50 elk between ones shot by friends and myself. I’ve seen plenty survive too……or at least we never found them.....sad to say but the failures are an important part of my opinions.

Just to set the record straight, lets start with some facts that get skipped in many of these “my arrow” discussions;
1) A bow is an amazingly efficient weapon
2) Just about any bow/arrow setup can work under perfect circumstances
3) Arrow flight is the number one factor in an arrows effectiveness
4) Shooting form, Tuning and Perfect arrow assembly [all contributing to #3 above] are much more important than your arrow weight or what BH
5) A bowhunter needs to know the limits of his setup
6) A bowhunter has to have an good understanding of animal anatomy
7) Just because your mech head flys like your FP’s doesn’t mean you have perfect arrow flight.


Yeah, some of the above aren’t specific to your arrow, but they have such a strong bearing on how everything works that they should be considered. I’ve been preaching to anyone that would listen for years; Think of your Bow/Arrow/Broadhead as a system….as it is all inter-related.

There are many other ways to create an effective hunting arrow besides mine……….mine isn’t THE ONLY WAY. My recommendation is to use this information as a guide….and experiment a little to find the right combination of weight, trajectory and BH effectiveness that works for you. I fully realize there is more than one way to skin a cat. That said, I have some pretty strong opinions….grin….just keep an open mind and I will explain the “why” of my choices.

Of course there will be a lot of disagreement with my opinions....but at the very least I hope for guys to "Ask the question" on the HOW and WHY for their own setup.
{I'm hoping I can post pics....lets try this one, Edit; this is going to be a PITA posting pics!]

utah%20bull2%20resize.jpg



All things considered, if your bow can be tuned to a specific arrow weight and spine, what would you say is the perfect FPS throwing as much weight as possible? I always preferred 260-270 FPS and loading as much weight as possible. Sure I could load it up and shoot 250 but where is the perfect balance theoretically? I want as much weight as possible but want to maintain enough speed to push that spear through the critter. I would assume a 40-50 yard shot for elk and less for whitetail or mule deer.
Thanks for a great several posts! Very helpful and well thought through.
Hoping a find which arrow configuration will tune to my bow.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Swede » 12 23, 2018 •  [Post 115]

Welcome to the forum Lone Coyote. I am sorry I missed your post until now. Feel free to pull up a camp chair near the fire and join in the conversations.
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Re: Hunting Arrow- My thoughts

Postby Lone Coyote » 12 23, 2018 •  [Post 116]

Thank you Swede. I’ll always jump in and voice my opinion and welcome additional insight from folks that know a lot more than me.
I’ve made up my mind this weekend on my new setup. Rather, IT was decided for me! A few new Day Six Arrows were sent to me as a trial on my new setup. I recently went to a much longer (and accurate) draw length and had to re-tune my arrows. My previous Day Six were lethal but were now too short and underspined. They sent me 4 new arrows to try bare shaft and paper tune at 20 yards. The decision was pretty easy. 3 didn’t shoot good for me. The one I was hoping would work was a perfect fit and looked like a .22 rifle hole in the paper. The others had tears. I am stoked on the setup.
Bottom Line: I am shooting 250 spine and throwing spears of 602gr at 260fps! I love the heavy arrow. My Triax is deathly quiet now and these arrows are the best and very very accurate! Topped with a 125gr IronWill broadhead and I know I am perfectly dialed in “for me”! I have essentially eliminated the variables that I have some control over and left the rest of risk to my ability to get close and execute a good shot.
About a month ago I shot a good mule deer on a 12 yard frontal shot that went in between neck and shoulder and exited right before his hind quarter. I’d say that is some penetration! That was a little lighter weight Day Six arrow too.
So for what it is worth- I say go with the best arrow and best broadhead for your bow. It is the only vital piece of equipment that comes into contact with the critter. As for weight of arrow, “go big or go home” empty handed !
I’ve enjoyed reading Beendere’s post. He is way ahead of me in knowledge but I am learning quickly. It is always nice to learn from people that actually know something factual as opposed to simply giving an opinion. Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one. Lol
Thanks for reaching out. Merry CHRISTMAS!
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