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Swedes kind!

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Swedes kind!

Postby Lefty » 06 25, 2019 •  [Post 1]

Yesterday my wife and I spotted a a-Forest Service truck drive in then back out of a road.
I joked to my wife that it was a girl driver

Silly me thinking they may have a travel map and could direct us to some unique atv trails I rode over to ask for a map
The ditzy or is it dizzy blonde with a nose ring truely was doing all blondes a stereoo type disservice .
They had a glorious paper map and had no idea where they were or how to get to the burn they were to spray .
Even though they had two road numbers a national monument trailhead and a map posted on a board with in sight
My wife tried to show them the Satalite location on a map on their phone

The driver was a guy but totally clueless
The blonde had no clue

My wife suggested we all move where they could get cell then pointed out land marks on the map and what we could see around us
Another gal got out of the back of the truck, we didn’t even know she was there
Apparently it quickly became obvious she was low girl on the totem pole ; but also the smart one , she was very polite and tactful around her superior employees
A cowgirl who needed some summer money before school started in the fall
Anyway she knew how to read a map where they were and where they needed to go . As apparent as it was her experienced co workers were clueless
My wife caught on ; revieweed where we were and how to get to the worksite without embarrassing the clueless pair or putting the cowgirl on the spot

Hours later we met the guy driver ; lost again and had no idea where he was to pick up the girls I hope search and rescue found them all
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Re: Swedes kind!

Postby Swede » 06 25, 2019 •  [Post 2]

Lefty: That is the field experience these "professionals" will need so they can become Rangers and Forest Supervisors. Within 10 years they will be in command of things. The Forest Service today is nothing like the organization I had worked with. Much of the true professionalism was gone even when I retired 16 years ago. The truth is that you were wasting your time, and theirs helping them find their way. The job they were out to do was useless and it did not matter where they were, or where they were going. They got out and had a nice walk and a nice drive. If you don't like seeing them in the forest, just go out on cloudy days. It might rain and spoil their fun.
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Re: Swedes kind!

Postby Lefty » 06 25, 2019 •  [Post 3]

I know,.. the newset generation at times seems so disappointing.
My youngest daughter had a very well paying job doing plant and soil surveying because she was a girl and her HS grades were good.
She thought it was hilarious. She enjoyed the job and the money but stated her and her boss were way overpaid

These kids were going in and hand spraying weeds. I know a plane could have done a better job than these guys for a fraction of the cost I also believe the cowgirl was going to do all of the real work for all three

A friend and I went to school for park and rec. My buddy continued and was became a 'big wig" His last year he made some huge recommendations,.. to eliminate jobs including his
Another buddy retires this year from the FS
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Re: Swedes kind!

Postby Lefty » 06 25, 2019 •  [Post 4]

Boy get me going on

Ran int the first biologist ever that knew nothing about sage grouse. Oboma dumped a lot of money into sage grouse. A few years back I ran into a "grouse biologist" he was bragging how he had found the only "leek" in the region and "today" there werent any grouse on it. Hm,.. I asked if he was here at sunrise,.. he exclaimed it was dangerous to drive in the dark out here

The next biologists, different funding , same president. Both from out east. Spent thousands of dollars to put 5000 gallons of water in a tank to provide water for sage grouse. Maybe some of the most remote desert in Idaho. Set trail cams and visited the camears 3 times a week,.. they were very disspointed that there were not any sage grouse in the area any more,.. proof, non ever came to the cattle water tank
Or how about the two gals and their clipboards walking around looking for a sage grouse nest.


Now I will say the ration seems to be similar those from the eastern academia and the western outdoorsman.
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Re: Swedes kind!

Postby Swede » 06 25, 2019 •  [Post 5]

Lefty, you are mistaken if you think studying Sage grouse is an Obama program. Sage grouse studies were going on long before he ever ran for the presidency. They have been on the endangered species list for decades. If they are ever going to come off the list, then intelligent measures will need to be taken. I think you may have a special class of idiot in Idaho, as the biologists I worked with at least understood what they were dealing with. Some wanted more restrictions, while others were more pragmatic.
The issues I have with the agency now are: No timber sales including salvage.
No treatment of insect infestations in many areas if anywhere.
Little to no road maintenance. Many roads do not meet the minimum safety standards. You do not need a study to take a chainsaw out and clear the brush out around the road corners and clean the culverts.
Kids running around doing darn near nothing useful. I think they are a part of the field crews studying things for environmental analysis that will accomplish nothing.
If I go out with my chain saw in fire season no one checks my fire equipment or permit.
If I am camped somewhere near a road, no one looks in to see that it is kept clean. I can use that site as a garbage dump and no one shows any interest.
Where I camped in a pay campground, they took off the pump handles rather than inspect the water to see if it was safe to drink.
We had a girl (age 18-22 best guess) handing out fliers at a scenic vista, but the paved road in there was grown over with brush and the rock wall barriers and benches for seating were in bad need of repair. This was a location along a scenic byway that the Forest Service was sending information on to invite people from all over the United States and at least as far away as Europe. I would be willing to venture a guess that the girl handing out fliers to a guest every half hour could just leave the fliers on a bench and go cut brush or mix a little concrete and repair the rock walls. You don't need a contractor and inspectors for that. She could replace broken boards in the park benches. Replacing a board and painting it does not take a special license.
The people I observed I doubt are idiots. They are just lazy. That did not happen near as often in decades past.
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Re: Swedes kind!

Postby Lefty » 06 26, 2019 •  [Post 6]

Swede
It’s just that more money was dumped into sage grouse and used in wierd ways
The extra push of money using “biologist” that didn’t know anything and were way out of their element
My best example is the hauling of water into a stock tank that grouse had no available access with the conclusion there were not any birds in the area
I guess my slam is to many biologist start out being clueless , no common sense no animal experience
In the 70s the feds hired a now world wide expert biologist who needed to capture wolves, for months he tried his ideas on how to capture wolves the feds paired him up with a trapping buddy of mine the “ biologist” was a non hunter but also an anti trapper
The biologist refused to use footholds
Then experimented in soft catch trap materials
Eventually he realized and endorsed foothold traps as the method to be used to catch wolve,s only took him months to figure that out
Unfortunately so many people are placed in positions


They do not belong in, In fact I know of some guys running a hunting forum that ,,,,,,,,,,,, :lol:
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Re: Swedes kind!

Postby Swede » 06 27, 2019 •  [Post 7]

The truth is I do not know what the Forest Service District employees do in the field anymore. They do not prepare and administer timber sales much if at all. They don't need to plant trees or thin them out later either. They are not maintaining the roads and recreation sites from what I see. All I see are fire fighters and fire patrols. That keeps them busy at times, but they don't do a lot else. Studying bats or fish amounts to little in the grand scheme of things, so does it matter if they are just riding around lost? Maybe not.
As for the Sage grouse; there is serious consideration of taking cattle off the range to protect them. I suspect the troughs were for cattle management and not for the birds. There are already some restrictions on recreation in Sage grouse habitat to protect the grouse. If their numbers continue to decline there will be more restrictions. Doing nothing is not a legal option. I think you will see colonies on Mars before the Endangered Species Act is cancelled.
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Re: Swedes kind!

Postby Lefty » 06 27, 2019 •  [Post 8]

Cows havent been on that area for that past 15 years. I did find 3 that got on the wrong side of the fnce and died of dehydration. Huge pasture over 25 sq miles

I ve spoke with a couple of biologist. What the current thinking is cattle are not the problem, except where cows have spring grazed reducing nesting cover and stomping on nests.
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Re: Swedes kind!

Postby Swede » 06 27, 2019 •  [Post 9]

Lefty: Why has there been no cows there for years. Is it because of the Sage grouse? If the problem is mitigated by Summer grazing, then why are the cattle not put in at that time? Many allotments are grazed after the Spring quarter.
Over the years I have found that when things don't add up in my mind, I am lacking some information. Expensive cattle troughs for grouse just does not add up. Was 90%+ of the troughs covered? Otherwise Evaporation would present an additional economic and manpower problem that could be easily mitigated with a cheaper barrel, a hose, a bucket and a toilet type valve. That could also be made safer and more accessible for birds.
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Re: Swedes kind!

Postby Lefty » 06 30, 2019 •  [Post 10]

The story The BLM feller sited. Becoming a National Monument also made some difference,many of the pastures were made into two
big pastures. The juniper posts burnt There also had been some burns and replants over the years. Years back they made the ranchers create an association because the ranchers all couldn't count, :roll: seem there was always too many cows on allotments, and all too often someone elses cows The area was a 30 minute drive to the only large fill holding tank other tanks were 15-60 minutes to water It had been over the years a May-June pasture Too hot in the summer for cows. It is also nearly a two hour drive once you enter the area to the further tanks
Evidently the Cattle Assn, cattlemen weren't working together very well. Most of the ranchers with big cattle numbers ended up arguing over how to divide the water, water distribution and other tanks and some weren't doing their share.
I dont think that area was designated as a specific study area.
Colorado State had been doing some research or started anyway They had put in some money and effort,.. then quit and the oldest professor was only aware that there had been reasearch in the early 90's.
This place is isolated secluded and very inhospitable. And out of the 60 full days Ive spent there and maybe 40 more part days I met 4 old-timers Jeeping, and a single what I thought was an abandon car and an antelope hunter. ( posted pictures and the story 5, 6, or so years back.)
In the adjoining area Ive met BLM workers, cattle men .
It was my own private hunting place until the wolves showed up and a fire burned all the "old growth sage" :cry:
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Re: Swedes kind!

Postby Lefty » 06 30, 2019 •  [Post 11]

I just jumped on the states web site. I said it was 25 sections,.. I shrunk the truth more than I thought, closer to 40 sections
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Re: Swedes kind!

Postby saddlesore » 07 01, 2019 •  [Post 12]

When I hunted a special draw elk area in NW CO back in 2009,they were doing a big sage grouse study. One fellow allowed it cost $50K for every bird the caught and banded. As I recollect that was in Obama time as he was elected in 08

CPW here in Colorado hires only College graduate of biology. They really need that degree to check licenses . Forest Service employees are used mostly to mop out restrooms and stock with toilet paper then they are promoted sell maps at Forest Service offices then to pushing a desk in some office.. They would not know how to operate a hand saw for trail clearing, let alone a chainsaw
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Re: Swedes kind!

Postby Swede » 07 01, 2019 •  [Post 13]

saddlesore wrote:One fellow allowed it cost $50K for every bird the caught and banded. As I recollect that was in Obama time as he was elected in 08


Was the 09 budget for grouse study approved before Obama even took the oath of office in January of 09? With 35 years with the F.S. I can say the difference in the budget was minimal between administrations. Some would cut a small percent across the board. Rarely, if ever did I see any line items changes, and Obama would not have had time to get into the Sage grouse issue. If I recollect right he was trying to avert an economic collapse about that time.
It is easy to say that it costs $50K for the F.S. to catch a Sage grouse, but lets get serious. You cannot divide a budget by the number or birds banded and say it costs $50K to catch a bird.
I do not like the way our Forests are managed now either, but the biologists I worked with were not stupid. They had a lot of pressure to try to everything reasonable to deal with endangered species including the Sage grouse. They can trap a bird rather efficiently. They were trapping birds as far back as the book of Genesis. The knack for doing it has not been lost. There were a lot of management discussions, and I doubt everyone agreed, but doing nothing was not an option if things like the range and recreation programs were to continue. One lawsuit could bring it all to a screeching halt.
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Re: Swedes kind!

Postby saddlesore » 07 01, 2019 •  [Post 14]

Ah, this was DOW ,not FS. Here in CO at least FS does no such studies.These young biologist had a hard time trapping three birds a week.When one thinks about how any government runs anything. it is not hard to imagine it. Paying for travel, per diem, moving living quarters in,wages, equipment,computers,traps,data recording, data reduction. It doesn't take a mathematician to figure out the total cost and divide by the number of birds caught.
I ran crews of 30-60 people in the field and was responsible for figuring the budget to do. I could figure out the cost of each person for a 3 month tour , based on if they were technicians, office support, engineers and PH's
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Re: Swedes kind!

Postby Lefty » 07 02, 2019 •  [Post 15]

Swede wrote:
saddlesore wrote:One fellow allowed it cost $50K for every bird the caught and banded. As I recollect that was in Obama time as he was elected in 08

Was the 09 budget for grouse study approved before Obama even took the oath of office in January of 09? With 35 years with the F.S. I can say the difference in the budget was minimal between administrations. Some would cut a small percent across the board. Rarely, if ever did I see any line items changes, and Obama would not have had time to get into the Sage grouse issue. If I recollect right he was trying to avert an economic collapse about that time.
It is easy to say that it costs $50K for the F.S. to catch a Sage grouse, but lets get serious. .

Seems like the quality of the biologists depends on the hire.The fellow I spoke with at 10:30 in the moring,. because "its dangerous out here in the dark" had a new F350 He told me is was"Obama money"
the BLM worker told me the water hauler/trail cam people were Federal money

Now the guys I spoke with in the beat up pickups, old ATVs fish nets and spot lights were Idaho State fish and game,.. The previous night that caught 12
the 4 I saw this year were all federal money , the two girls with the clip boards were Federal money -Department of Energy The biologist That seemed to know was interning through Idaho Sta e University he seemed in the know
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Re: Swedes kind!

Postby Indian Summer » 07 02, 2019 •  [Post 16]

Swede.... and to think you think I’m rude when I tell people if you are looking for tips on elk hunting don’t waste your time calling the Forest Service. Even if they saw an elk they wouldn’t be able to tell you where it was.

Laugh if you want but the same holds true for 75% of game biologists. Only the guys ready to retire are worth talking to. These days they are bookworms. Numbers guys. They can chat about winter range, mortality rates.... maybe even bull to cow ratios, but the fact is they couldn’t find an elk much less kill one if they had to. There’s a huge difference between people who work outdoors and those who hunt. That’s why I always suggest talking with taxidermists and game processors. Those people are more in the know when it comes to putting elk on the ground.
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Re: Swedes kind!

Postby saddlesore » 07 02, 2019 •  [Post 17]

Indian Summer wrote:Swede.... and to think you think I’m rude when I tell people if you are looking for tips on elk hunting don’t waste your time calling the Forest Service. Even if they saw an elk they wouldn’t be able to tell you where it was.

Laugh if you want but the same holds true for 75% of game biologists. Only the guys ready to retire are worth talking to. These days they are bookworms. Numbers guys. They can chat about winter range, mortality rates.... maybe even bull to cow ratios, but the fact is they couldn’t find an elk much less kill one if they had to. There’s a huge difference between people who work outdoors and those who hunt. That’s why I always suggest talking with taxidermists and game processors. Those people are more in the know when it comes to putting elk on the ground.


Spot on IS
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Re: Swedes kind!

Postby Lefty » 07 07, 2019 •  [Post 18]

saddlesore wrote:Spot on IS


The truth is it generally it isnt hunters that go into wildlife biology .


While there are some outdoors man that follow their heart,.. most biologists Ive met are the "romantics" from the east
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Re: Swedes kind!

Postby Swede » 07 07, 2019 •  [Post 19]

When I worked for the Forest Service about 2/3 of the biologists hunted. (my estimate only) Some were avid elk hunters some hunted for different species. At Burns Or. our office was next door to the State Fish and Wildlife office. I do not have a good estimate on the percent that hunted over there, but I know some did including the head manager.
The biologists would give you good information, but it depended on you asking intelligent questions. If you wanted to know where to find elk, that would get you a large circle on a map. If you were sharing more specific criterion, then you could get a more precise answer. I knew exactly where the head of the ODF&W office hunted elk. I never asked for information about that area. I do not think it was any better than where I hunted.
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Re: Swedes kind!

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 07 08, 2019 •  [Post 20]

Swede is the kind that make my kind look good :D
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