Internet Hunting Partners: Mis-match.com?

[Indian Summer]

So I was reading Swede's post about why people quit. Also read some great and insightful replies. I've had quite the year re-learning some old lessons as well as a few new ones. My reply to you Swede would be if it matters to you whether or not a hunting/camp partner stays for the long haul have some criteria. Unfortunately I re-learned this one this season.

This year I decided to kinda reach out to some rookies. I wish I had some before and after pictures. I'll paint the picture for you. It's amazing how people can go from so gracious and appreciative when they are getting something they want handed to them.... to not keeping up their end of the deal once they have it.

First... a rookie from Bowsite. First time elk hunter from Illinois. Archery solo. needless to say he had his work cut out for him. No clue about license procedures, even less of a clue where to hunt or where to even begin his research. Really really nice guy so hey..... I handed him one of my top spots conducive to his plans and ask nearly nothing in return. Nearly meaning I simply requested that he keep a little journal which he already planned to and pass on the details of his hunt to me. I like to know what's going on in my parts of elk country and feedback is priceless. So the winter turns to spring, spring to summer and summer to fall. All of the anticipated questions about hunting and gear etc are answered. As his trip approaches I give him some really good up to the minute reports from a friend who hunts and guides there. He is more than prepared and in an area with great numbers and some decent bulls.

I can't say that's the last I ever heard from old Illinois. I got a PM that said... "back in the civilized world. No meat, but certainly my first trip of a life time. cant thank you enough. . I will send you the details soon. Tons of malfunctions, bad weather...time of my life!"

I replied asking that he please give me the report before I leave. Never heard back. Then when out there I sent a final message: I have wind of a sheepherder in my new area can you please tell me what you saw in the next 3 days? Nothing. To this day nothing.

[Indian Summer]

Hunter #2: Another Bowsiter. Maybe a pattern?

This one from Minnesota. Ground zero. Asking for tips on a DIY Colorado elk hunt and offering some world class whitetail hunting In Kansas in return. OK. We talk, he sends trail cam pics and a photo of a 170+ he arrowed last season. Another really nice guy. Lots of patterns. grrr Our agreement is I hunt deer on his lease and I take him under my wing to hunt with me this season from my camp. We apply and draw elk licenses and work out all the details. As the year progresses his number of days to hunt start to become less due to the wife. Oh yeah I forgot.... Kansas falls through after he loses the lease. Now the offer is to pay for half of a lease elsewhere that he knows nothing about. I agree and that falls through too anyway. That's fine. So the word is 'hopefully" next year on the deer hunt.

In August as many of you know I drove out and scouted the spot extensively. Found bulls and worked out all of the logistics. Things looked really good. I went out early to guide for an outfitter who needed help on short notice and got word that after glassing across the river to where Illinois hunted the place was just covered in elk. Huh. Anyway I meet Minnesota and we set camp. He's green alright. Never picked up a chainsaw or even split wood. That's fine. I told him several times that I didn't care what his abilities are. I can handle all the camp stuff and saddle his horse every morning. How hard he hunted didn't matter either as it has no bearing on my success. My only criteria was someone who was dependable with an upbeat personality so we could have a few laughs exchanging stories at night. Pretty simple.

Camp is set, wood cut, hay stacked and off we go to see what the elk are up to. After a 2 hour ride we tie up and take a short 3 minute walk to where I can see some prime areas. In 2 minutes we spot 2 bulls. Mind you Minnesota said all year: 6 points only for the first several days. the biggest of the 2 is a big 5 just starting to flare into a 6 point on the back of both beams. I ask will you shoot that bull tomorrow? The answer is absolutely. Good I said... you should, It's a great 1st bull. So the next day I saddle everything up and before you know it he's sitting in his spot... well sorta and I'm off to the other side of a major saddle. We talk at a couple pre-determined times. Then I say let's check back at 3. at 5 to 3 I see that bulls bedded halfway down the next finger over from where pilgrim is. I get on the horn and ask do you see that bull? Yes he says I'm 410 yards away. Well I ask then you didn't drop down the finger like I said so get on the backside and drop until you are at the same elevation as him. He says he doesn't know if he can so I haul butt over there to "guide". When I pop out on the adjacent finger the bull is still bedded at 308 yards. I ask pilgrim where he is. same spot. (no grin!) There's snow mind you so I say drop till you cut my tracks and follow them to me. By the time he gets there a cow has got up and the bull jumped up and dogged her down the finger and around the other side away from us. Pilgrim commented that he watched that before dropping. Why? grrr So I say c'mon I know exactly where he's heading. I watched a herd bedded and feeding in August right where they headed. It's all coming together now. it's all downhill and not far at all.

There's a sentry cow standing like a statue at the top of the other finger so I drop extra low where she can't see us. We sidehill through the draw and roll around that next finger picking up a little hill. Minnesota is dying! Since it was all downhill I can't figure that out but that's fine we'll get there. So I get to the point where I was looking uphill and took 1 step too many. They are lower in elevation at less than 100 yards and 1 of the cows sees me. The others don't really know what's alarmed her so instead of running they kind of shuffle around a little. MN is only 200 feet behind me. 240 inches from sealing the deal but just stands there. I'm sure the look in my eyes said it all but he just looked up and then back down at his feet not taking a single step.

By some miracle of God the cows finally lined out and headed the other way but the bull had different plans. Not knowing what the cow saw he came right at us and just downhill heading for a patch of aspens below us. All the while I have my finger pointed right at him waiting for Minnesota to look up. he finally does and I mouth the words " here he comes!" The bull stops at 150 yards. Miss! This is all in a wide open meadow mind you. The bull runs straight downhill to 235 yards and stops again in the open. Miss! he runs uphill on the other side and stops in the only open area around. Miss #3. Gone. That's fine. Good day right. I dropped a couple F bombs and tell Minnesota to shake it off. But he doesn't. We pick up a mere 150 feet of elevation back to the horses but he is barely crawling. The little downhill move is the only move of the day after sitting on the finger all day. That's fine.

That night he says he's beat up. I tell him I'll unsaddle and feed etc take it easy. We both go to bed early in hopes of another great day. or so I thought. The next morning he looks fine but says he has the flu. Adding that he'll shoot the 1st legal bull he sees. he asks if we can toss a folding chair in the panniers on the pack horse which we did. It's going to be 55 degrees, no wind or clouds. On the way to the spot I stop on the high ridge to check my messages real quick. Figures... trouble with a job back home. I'll have to work it out later. Then MN asks... what if I can't make it today? I say what do you mean? He says what if I can't sit there all day I'm cold. So I show him how to bridle a horse. By now we've pounded a trail in the snow and he knows the horse are haybale homing pigeons anyway. He bridles it himself and we continue on.

We get to his spot and I drop him off with a plan to talk at 10. On top of the other side I set up the spotting scope. There's Pilgrim still on top of the finger instead of down where he can shoot and on the sat phone... for hours. On the radio he says he feels much better and is going to sit all day for sure BUT... there's trouble with a job back home. (hey I just said that didn't I?) He also asks if it's ok to shoot a cow.

Now I can hear Swede talking when he says "Most make a call then claim something has happened at home. One told me their pet rabbit was sick."

I bet I've seen more than you Swede. When you have 40 or 60 hunters a year, the majority of them once in a lifetimers, you sure see a fair share of guys bailing out. I've seen a few.... a very few legit ones. Mostly severe symptoms of altitude sickness. Usually cases where a pre existing problem flares up as a result of the condition. the one thing in common with the legit guys is the look in their eyes and their words of sheer disappointment. There's no question they would stay for their long anticipated hunt if they could. I've had guys leave the mountain and come back a coupe days later. the ones who are full of rabbit pellets have no idea how transparent they are. They can't begin to show the level of despair that the legit ones do. If they had even a small idea of how many would be elk hunters get literally chewed up and spit out by the realities of the mountains they might realize how obvious it is. Often the terrain is too much but also the days of seeing so much country and zero animals. some folks just cannot handle it after watching does fawns and flocks of turkeys running everywhere back home.

If you're reading this Minnesota like I said.... it's not for everyone. Since you didn't say "this isn't for me" I couldn't say yep it can happen as you were leaving. But if you think back that not even once did you say, "man I'm so pissed. I waited all year for this" No: "Man that client is such a ____ for making me give up my elk hunt after 1 day" None of that. hell I've seen guys that were like right out of Hollywood compared to that! lol

So when I get to the horses that night I hear the words I knew I would. "I gotta go home" I had 2 hours to think about the repercussions of that. We water horses on the trail.... how would I water his 2? The road down is really dicey.... what if I need pulled out of the ditch... like the guys I pulled out of the ditch? But more than anything else.... what if I get hurt? With livestock it's always a little more of a possibility than when you are on your own two feet right. So on the trail I decide I have no choice but to move camp to a more civilized area. (f-bomb) That means giving up 1 of my 10 days to hunt to tear it down, pack it up, drive and re-set camp. Minnesota tells me upon out arrival in camp that he is leaving immediately. I had no choice but to put the brakes on that. I can't fit the camp along with the hay, grain, and firewood all in my truck. So the next day off we go. Back to my old spot which..... Illinois never did give me any feedback on.

Then it hits me: New criteria!!! No more rookies. No more internet elk hunting dates.... no more Mr Nice guy! Actually that didn't all hit me until later. I knew my standards already had to change. A 5 point would be a good bull in the new spot only 8 miles from town. For some reason I passed a 5 on day 1. I saw a couple other bulls a 5 and a decent 6 neither of which gave me any opportunity. Then.... with only 2 days to go I decided if I wanted to fill the freezer I'd have to take any elk. Spikes were legal where I was but for me it's a branch antlered bull or a cow. I let the little guys grow. I had a cake shot on one but walked away. Then I gave up another of my 10 days to relocate camp again. I lost a 3rd day when I rode 3 hours into an area on a tip only to find out that the place is only good after some steady snow. It was winter range and there wasn't a track.

So I lost 30% of my hunting to repercussions from the whole ordeal. That's NOT fine.

[Swede]

Joe it is good to see you post again. It is interesting that the fellows I hunt with are great to be with and they will do anything for me. The thing that bothers me is that they get discouraged and leave early. They are still good guys and are welcome anytime. My frustration is that they leave too soon, and rarely get anything. Also sometimes it is difficult to coordinate around their schedule, whatever that is.
Your situation is different. I guess your client stuck it out, but took advantage of you. My people don't do that. They just pack up and leave if the hunting is not going the way we would all like it to.
P.S. Stick with Elknut Forum. We are a better class of riffraff.

[bnsafe]

sucks when you give a hand out an get slapped for it. I sincerely hope I give anybody reason to think that about me.

[Indian Summer]

There were some really good comments on Swede's thread. I completely respect all of them.

Some of my favorites: quarbles "i think some peeps romanticize the backcountry and daydream about the experience they want to have.... when reality doesn't align with their fantasy they second guess their relationship with nature.' Priceless!

ishy my heart goes out to you. What a terrible dilemma. You are a great person no doubt but one cannot change who he is or what his innermost desires are. I'd like to think that like many your wife just doesn't understand the fire that burns inside a hunter. They perceive it as something that we love more than them. As competition. I hope that's all it is because a well thought out conversation can go a long way toward solving that. Good luck my friend.

Olympus Hunt made some very good points. But to me if you are anything but a solo hunter you have to realize that your commitment isn't just to kill an elk or give it hell for your own reasons. You also have a commitment to your partner. Not just to be there to help out but for all of the other reasons.

One of the most level headed and selfless posts had to be Patricia's. "Since I am a solo hunter, my decisions to quit only hurt myself. However, I would never abandon another person while hunting if I had a hunting partner. Safety trumps everything. Leaving someone behind is not an option and I have never done that with any of my outdoor adventures."

Can anyone think of a good reason why every partner shouldn't live by those words? If your house is really on fire or your rabbit is really dying it might be one thing but if you are doing your best to B.S. your way out of a hunt because you found out it's work.... you're just a shitty human being pardon my French.

A hunt doesn't have to get to the point where it's not safe before making a decision to quit or go to plan B. I always say it's supposed to be fun and if it isn't it's time for a change. Communicate with your partners. But if you are afraid of horses, can't handle steep hills, or found out what you saw on tv was a fairy tale... that doesn't justify pulling the rug out from under the other hunter. If there are 3 or 4 in camp it may be different but when there's two it can change everything. So if you need more sleep, like to be in camp before dark, or just want to hunt at half throttle that IS fine. Go into what I call "vacation mode" Keep telling yourself what elkmtngear said: "Things are not always going to go the way you want it on an elk hunt; sometimes you just have to enjoy the simple pleasure of being out in the elk woods!"

Camp is cozy. Food is there. Nice views around. Have a beer. Go for a walk. Maybe sit in a folding chair on the sat phone until you get another crack at a bull. But before you commit to yourself and your partner & leave home to do all that you have to make sure the wife is ok, make sure your work is done, make sure you listen to AmericanBwana and ask yourself "why did you go in the first place?" If it's all about you go solo.

Like swede said.... the rabbit is fine and so is the job. It's the priorities & integrity that need work. My 99 cents.

I had a good trip. First time ever I passed branch antlered bulls. Sometimes it was hard sidehilling while kicking myself in the a$$ but I absolutely do know how to enjoy my time in elk country. I learned a lot of new country even though it wasn't the time to be learning. I could have punched my tag if I really wanted to or... if I really needed to to get what I wanted out of my hunt. Fortunately I have half an elk in the freezer so I won't starve. But like I said.... I have come to think that finding an elk hunting mate on the net is more like Mismatch.com than E(lk)Harmony.com. (grin)

For the record MntMutt you are NOT a quitter. it rained like hell this year with snow in between. I know a lot of veterans than ran with their tails tucked. There is no critiquing to be done to a person who made decisions that didn't affect anyone but themselves. Your thread was very heartfelt as was ishy's and I think that's something you don't find on other internet forums. That's why I love this place and feel like you guys are friends as much as "posters".

Same for everyone else who call themselves quitters. I'll be glad to remind you of your regrets in 11 months if you remind me of mine when it's time to buy licenses. lol Live and learn right. So to any of you who are licking your wounds right now PM your address and I'll mail you an elk steak and we can all sit around smile 'cause we're elk hunters and work together to make it all go as planned next year.

[mtnmutt]

Joe, sorry to hear you got burned by those other hunters. Glad to hear you made it back safely. I hope you found part of your season rewarding and fulfilling.

I have had no shows or quit early people for other activities that I try to enjoy with others. This doesn't just happen with hunting. It has made me more selective with who I invite along. However, I am not perfect. I have had to bail on others at times as well.

I must admit. As a former east coaster, I did not know what a really big mountain was until I moved to Colorado. I initially thought I could do anything in the Colorado mountains. I now have a much better perspective of what I can do in the mountains than when I arrived here 22 years ago.

Your hunting partners may not have had the wisdom to fully understand what they were getting into. I am not trying to make excuses for them. I can relate to them based on my greenhorn arrival here in 1991.

I strongly suggest that you Skype with those people before you put yourself out there for them. You can read a person by seeing them far better than reading words on a computer. A person's eyes are very revealing.

Even with an empty freezer and lasting memories of the rain, I had a fulfilling season. My brother works with someone who gets 2 elk and one deer each year. He has kindly shared his meat with us.

Because my summer scouting and September hunt may be disrupted by other commitments in 2014, I have already started to prep and research for next season. Its a good way to shake off my failure to fill my freezer and get me excited about my next elk hunt.

I hope everyone chooses their hunting partners wisely. On January 1st, everyone is excited to elk hunt in the fall. Then comes September 1st and ... Well, you know the rest of the story.

Only 10 more months to go!

[easeup]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I ROARED OVER EVERY WORD SO FAR!

Thanks for all the time it took to type it up also.

I cant top or match any of it, but I have seen enough of what you say to feel your pain.

[Huntography]

I can relate. I film many hunters who I meet online. I get to know them before I film them through lots on conversations online and phone too sometimes. All have been great people.

But I learned that in the future I will be more selective with who I film and why I film them. Online personalities and hunting styles and passion sometimes don't line up with expectations. I live, I learn.

Helping new out of state hunters like you do is a great gift you have given people.

Just learn from it as you have written and you will be fine.

Thsnks for sharing what you went through. It helps me with what I do moving forward.

Rudy

[ElkNut1]

Joe, great stories, been there done that! I think I know those two guys! (grin) They can have more excuses than Carter has Pills!!

ElkNut1

[pointysticks]

i'm a complete rookie. Elknut helped me!!

he was the first person i tried to call when we scored. silly, but for some reason it was really important for me to let him know his help paid off. i cant remember if i got thru..i think i emailed him from a town diner. (i called my mom, second..shhh, dont tell her)

i did email him and give him details of the hunt and told him exactly where and how we scored. it was interesting. we just took some random road..and Paul knew it..he knew the road. there are hundreds of roads out there!!

I. Summer..you did a good thing buddy.

[BrentLaBere]

I feel bad reading those two stories. Reaching out and helping others only to get burned just plain sucks. I wish it would have turned out better for you.
I just want to point out that you reaching out to help others doesn't go unnoticed. If you remember me asking question on the elk nut forums, as well as others asking, where to find elk. You went into detail on marking the 'X' on maps and following what you find. Where to go from the trail heads and ect...
A long with others advice I had this written down in my playbook. It put me on elk everyday except 2 out of my 9 day hunt. I simply new where to look by dissecting a topo map and using the information I gained from one area and applying it to another. Marking that 'X' on the map placed me in an elks bedroom with a 20 yard opportunity at a great bull. I am not sure I would have found it without some of your information you provided the elknut forums.
Just have to say thank you and I am glad you are back posting.

[Z Barebow]

Thanks for posting Joe. I will concur with what Brent has said. By posting hear, you have helped out more than two hunters. Your knowledge and willingness to share is very rare.

I will say it again. If elk hunting were easy, everyone would do it. In the old days, elk hunting was glorified by Jack O'Connor and it fueled many dreams. Today we we have many virtual/anonymous posters on the internet fueling our passions. But many of these posting only touch on the high points of a hunt. (Camp fires, good weather, elk seemingly in every drainage, etc) Contrary to Primos videos, much of public land elk hunting isn't very glamorous. Wearing your raingear for days on end, soaked to the bone day after day, hour after hour without seeing an elk isn't something many folks aren't ready for.

I also like Patricia's comments. "Since I am a solo hunter, my decisions to quit only hurt myself." I remind myself of how much preparation I put into the hunt. I am not going pull the plug early. And sometimes it isn't easy as that good idea fairy is chirping pretty loud as you are soaking and shivering, trying to convince you that you are on the path to hypothermia and a lonely death.

BUT, I will say this. If your life and well being is GENUINELY in jeopardy, it is time to make a change. It doesn't have to involve going home. You might need a night/day in relative comfort to reassess. Think about moving to plan B, C etc. (I recently read a quote from a famous mountaineer which I have adapted to elk hunting). Remind yourself-

Killing an elk is optional, getting home is mandatory.

[>>>---WW---->]

mtnmutt brought up a good point about Skyping other hunters. I think you can learn a lot more face to face as well.
so how many of you out there have used Skype? I just took it ofm y computer because no one was ever online. But I can easily reinstall it in about 5 minutes if others would like to talk about elk hunting.

[Vanish]

On every one of these threads I have to credit cnelk for helping me get started. Even though we didn't hunt quite where he suggested, he helped us pick a unit, which seems easy, but when there are 100+ options, eliminating one decision I had to make helped tremendously. Just knowing that yes, this unit/area has elk, took a huge weight off my shoulders. Now that it has been a couple years, we've learned how to locate elk by being out there, and have found some of our own spots.

[Swede]

Vanish: Please don't give credit to cnelk. It goes to his head and he is tough enough to deal with without you pumping up his ego. It is best to keep him humble.

[Mikeha33]

Joe,

I was one of those guys that thought they could do anything in the mountains as soon as I stepped foot in. A complete rookie, and as I found, damn near a complete fool. I was aware of the success rates in CO gave me less than a 15% chance of bagging an animal, and that didn't scare or deter me one bit. Neither did the thought of being miles away from another person, or hours away from cell service. Boy was I wrong.

The first second I stepped out of the truck at the trailhead, about 11pm on Labor day, and the ONLY lights were from stars (which were brighter than I've ever seen), and the ONLY sounds were the metal of the engine block cooling down, and the ONLY smell was wet pines, I was immediately overwhelmed, not scared, per say, but realized how small I was in the world, and that was an eye opening experience. Hell, I could have talked my way off the mountain right there. But I didn't, and we stayed. It was one of the best decisions of my life, even though an animal wasn't harvested, I learned and grew more that week than any other single moment of my life, with only one exception, which will never be trumped, which was my first child being born.

Most people, myself included, see the hunting shows that shows the glitz and glamour of the high country and think its for them. What they dont see or hear, are the gullywashing rainstorms, the pounding nickel sized hail stones, the things that go bump in the night, the miles and miles of wood that is so wet that NONE of it will burn, the sprained ankles, the wet, blistered feet, zero animals, and any other obstacle that until you've done it, cannot be clearly comprehended.


It isn't for everybody.

[Lark Bunting]

I know this is an older thread but I am just getting around to this section of the forum.

It sucks you have dealt with ungrateful people. As you read, I'm a greenhorn to not just elk hunting but hunting in general....but I'm working my ass off to learn as much as I possibly can.

After my introduction last week AmericanBwana reached out and we met up for lunch this weekend. I was very grateful he took some time out of his weekend to put up with my questions. I was very interested in relating his stories to what i have read and hearing them put into practical experiences.

It sucks as a person in my position to read about your decision: "Then it hits me: New criteria!!! No more rookies. No more internet elk hunting dates.... no more Mr Nice guy!" But, I get it. The whole 'fool me once' thing comes into play.

Please know that as someone who is as passionate, obsessive and stubborn as myself, I really appreciate the knowledge you've shared with this forum. My wife faults me for being obsessive. When I set my mind to something I don't stop until the plan is accomplished. I've never settled to be "good enough" at anything and aspire to excel at what ever I do. Point being, in a perfect world you'd reconsider helping out a newbie and show me the ropes. There are good people out there that would be thrilled to have the opportunities those guys did.

I am planning a trip with some buddies next fall and it's a huge step for me. It'll be my first backpacking hunting trip and I can't say I'll be great at it my first time but I will research ad nauseum and go in as prepared as I can be. AmericanBwana has suggested I could join him if my plans fall through. That was HUGE of him to offer. If for some reason my group's plans don't pan out I'd be blessed to go with Bwana to learn from an experienced hunter.

I hope as time passes you'll give another rookie a chance. And, I hope they are appreciative.

[pointysticks]

i am set up to hunt a local lake.

it is run by the Corp of Army Engineers, so they view hunters as a great way to keep the local hog population in check. i always try to hunt with a buddy, to split fuel cost, comparaderie, etc. this one guy, i am about to fumigate from my "inner circle". he never calls me back. if i call him, he ends the call with a "gotta go, i'll call you back in 45 mins". never to be heard from again.

i am trying to plan the opening morning at the lake. gah! last quick call, he wanted me to register him. wtf? he has internet..i found the link by myself, so can he. he is out. i'm done.

this is the guy i put onto an elk last year. bummer he turned out this way.

[Indian Summer]

Lark... first of all you surely know by my post on your introduction thread that I think very highly of you. Second, I want to be clear about my original post on this thread.

I will ALWAYS be here helping people, rookies included, when I can. I can't resist that because I'm a teacher by nature and this is the only place where I really feel like people appreciate it. Here is where every effort to pass things on doesn't turn into yet another ugly debate. Here, as I told Paul just the other day, is home.

But there are just so many things that someone who has never hunted elk can't be taught. The things they just have to find out for themselves by being there. Mainly.... what they are made of. Over the years I've seen tons of tough guys crash and burn. Guys who were the best of deer hunters. Business owners who mastered whatever it is they do back home. Guys out of the military who come with more knives and gear than Cabela's, camos tucked in their black combat boots etc... some real bad asses..... who also went down in flames for various reasons.

So if those folks didn't know themselves enough to know better... how can I ever expect to know what's between their ears after some emails or phone calls? There's just no way. So yes, I won't be going into elk country anymore with someone who's never been there before. Elk hunting is too important to me to make my hunt an experiment for someone else. To be honest it's hard to resist when I come across people like you. When I read your first post I thought... man I'd like to take that guy and his son out and show them the ropes. Then came the flashback.... I better let them give it a try first.

Like I said above my partners don't need to be seasoned elk nuts. Just good people who realize that I depend on them as much as they do on me. So all my new criteria requires is that you have done it at least one time before. It's a huge indicator of what a hunter is made of if he tried it once, learned the realities of it all, maybe got his/her butt kicked.... and wants more. Those people at least know what it's like to walk up a mountain with a backpack on. They have experienced the fact that unlike deer hunting back home there may be days where you don't see or hear squat. Some people just cannot handle that.

I really appreciate the kind words. I never forget comments like that and they do restore my faith in people. But I've never had any problems with people who fit in here on Paul's forums. Our tight knit group and humble members have a way of running off the bad guys. Thank God!

Who knows.... maybe one day you'll get to lie awake listening to me snore after a day of hard hunting! So careful what you wish for. lol Have a great day!!!!

[easeup]

oh so well said.

wise decision I believe.

[Lark Bunting]

Lark... first of all you surely know by my post on your introduction thread that I think very highly of you. Second, I want to be clear about my original post on this thread.

I will ALWAYS be here helping people, rookies included, when I can. I can't resist that because I'm a teacher by nature and this is the only place where I really feel like people appreciate it. Here is where every effort to pass things on doesn't turn into yet another ugly debate. Here, as I told Paul just the other day, is home.

But there are just so many things that someone who has never hunted elk can't be taught. The things they just have to find out for themselves by being there. Mainly.... what they are made of. Over the years I've seen tons of tough guys crash and burn. Guys who were the best of deer hunters. Business owners who mastered whatever it is they do back home. Guys out of the military who come with more knives and gear than Cabela's, camos tucked in their black combat boots etc... some real bad asses..... who also went down in flames for various reasons.

So if those folks didn't know themselves enough to know better... how can I ever expect to know what's between their ears after some emails or phone calls? There's just no way. So yes, I won't be going into elk country anymore with someone who's never been there before. Elk hunting is too important to me to make my hunt an experiment for someone else. To be honest it's hard to resist when I come across people like you. When I read your first post I thought... man I'd like to take that guy and his son out and show them the ropes. Then came the flashback.... I better let them give it a try first.

Like I said above my partners don't need to be seasoned elk nuts. Just good people who realize that I depend on them as much as they do on me. So all my new criteria requires is that you have done it at least one time before. It's a huge indicator of what a hunter is made of if he tried it once, learned the realities of it all, maybe got his/her butt kicked.... and wants more. Those people at least know what it's like to walk up a mountain with a backpack on. They have experienced the fact that unlike deer hunting back home there may be days where you don't see or hear squat. Some people just cannot handle that.

I really appreciate the kind words. I never forget comments like that and they do restore my faith in people. But I've never had any problems with people who fit in here on Paul's forums. Our tight knit group and humble members have a way of running off the bad guys. Thank God!

Who knows.... maybe one day you'll get to lie awake listening to me snore after a day of hard hunting! So careful what you wish for. lol Have a great day!!!!

I completely get it and now understand a little better. I like that you say in the future you'd want the people/person to have experienced it first hand on their own. I consider this season more of a kindly donation to the local DOW than a real hunting experience. Not that we didn't learn a lot and not that I didn't appreciate every second of being in the woods with my son but it was our first season and we didn't stray too far off the beaten path as I didn't want to induce hatred to the sport for my son.

I look forward to getting some experience under my belt in 2014. I hope I have the same fire in my belly next year at this time that I do now. If so, I'm going to bump this topic back up to the top and will ping you about planning that trip.