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Archery elk shot placement revisited...

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Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby slim9300 » 01 20, 2018 •  [Post 1]

Let’s just assume for arguments sake that an elk has the same inflated lung shape and proportions as a deer (I would be shocked if it didn’t, and technically we should be looking at a bovine, but I’m pretty sure it doesn’t matter). I believe the inflated lung shape is identical from what I can find. This video (see below) really seemed to change my perspective on the way I consider shooting elk with my bow. It basically makes all of those diagrams over the years with the shape of the lungs look very misleading.

The last 5 years I have followed the principle of coming up the leg and shooting the bottom 1/3, as being the ideal broadside shot. My rational was that if I hit the leg/shoulder bone the elk lives, and if I don’t it certainly dies. Here’s the problem, my partner and I have unfortunately lost more elk with this method than ever before with humerus/scapula shots that end up with zero penetration. I guess one could argue that the elk at least survived but there is nothing worse than wounding an animal that I think about 365 days a year. During this 5 season span we have killed 17 archery elk between the two of us, so it certainly wasn’t a terrible percentage of lost animals, but we all want to become more effective (hence this post) and the goal is not losing a single animal.

The opposing school of thought is shooting the elk in the ‘middle’ (in terms of height) and a few inches back from the bone structure. This was what was taught to me by my dad and learned from killing 51 elk in his lifetime (2/3 with his bow). The reasoning for moving away from this way of thinking was both the blood trail and that an errand shot into the guts means the elk is dead but rarely recovered.

Here’s the problem. I clearly watched two bulls (from the same angle as the shooter) this season take 470 grain arrows going 280 FPS with small fixed broadheads, in what I would deem the ‘perfect’ location. Both shots were inside of 25 yards. One of them the lower part of the scapula must have been back and deflected the arrow upwards and over the animal. The arrow was recovered in two complete pieces with only blood on the broadhead. The lighted nock allowed me to watch the arrow tumble over the elk and never gain access into the cavity. The arrow snapped as it hit the back of the elk. The other elk the arrow must have hit the very left side of the ball of the shoulder or the top of the humerus. Either way it looked ideal (certainly not too low) until I realized the arrow hit with a smack and simply fell to the feet of the elk. The entire steel broadhead came apart and the steel ferrule split in two. There was no blood on the shaft and we watched the bull walk away stiff legged and confused for a couple hundred yards.

Here’s my point. Watching this video and seeing the shape and size of an inflated lung, why would anyone come up the leg and shoot tight with it? Why risk contact with the heavy bone of an elk? I know it works, I have killed many with this method. In 2012 I killed a 6x6 by breaking its humerus and ‘defecting’ the arrow into the bull’s heart. But it was luck that I wasn’t a 1/4” lower. This is coming from a guy the strongly argued the opposite just last year and for years prior (on this site). [WHITE SMILING FACE]️

Either way. This is a good time for a discussion. The season is 231 days away but who’s counting?

https://youtu.be/MoGPKDJZDjc


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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby Swede » 01 20, 2018 •  [Post 2]

Good stuff Slim.
I did not realize the lungs went back as far as shown on the video. I always or nearly always gut my animals, and have to reach up from behind the last rib quite a ways, and nearly climb into the elk in order to get ahold of the lungs. That of coarse is due to the lungs being deflated. Another thing I have noticed is that the area you can shoot into the lungs, from a tree stand elevation, is as large as you have from the ground level. You do not need to hit both lungs. It is totally unnecessary. What you need to do is send a razor sharp broad-head through the mass of veins and arteries close to the heart. Massive hemorrhaging kills, not letting the air out of the lungs as some believe.
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Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby slim9300 » 01 20, 2018 •  [Post 3]

Swede wrote:Good stuff Slim.
I did not realize the lungs went back as far as shown on the video. I always or nearly always gut my animals, and have to reach up from behind the last rib quite a ways, and nearly climb into the elk in order to get ahold of the lungs. That of coarse is due to the lungs being deflated. Another thing I have noticed is that the area you can shoot into the lungs, from a tree stand elevation, is as large as you have from the ground level. You do not need to hit both lungs. It is totally unnecessary. What you need to do is send a razor sharp broad-head through the mass of veins and arteries close to the heart. Massive hemorrhaging kills, not letting the air out of the lungs as some believe.


I learned a lot too! It was very interesting.

You are totally right. I have also found that animals die faster when the arrow passes through the lungs close to the heart versus out toward the ends. It now makes more sense.

Given all of that, I’ll be shooting middle of the lungs from now on. Much higher odds.


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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby >>>---WW----> » 01 20, 2018 •  [Post 4]

I looked at all three of the videos. Basically, they are saying I have always been aiming close to the right spot. I have never been a fan of the so called V. Instead, pretty close to right up the crease. By the way, good to see you on here Conlin!
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby T.B. » 01 20, 2018 •  [Post 5]

Makes me rethink what I’ve always thought about the size of the lungs and where to aim. I have always gutted my whitetail kills( I know not an elk but all I have for comparison) and like Swede has stated the lungs have been completely deflated. Never really thought of anatomy in those terms(deflated vs inflated lungs). I hope some of the experienced elk killers chime in on this discussion. Good conversation for staying in the elk chasing state of mind.
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby jmez » 01 20, 2018 •  [Post 6]

I disagree with his model. The diaphragmatic line of pleural reflection starts at the 7th or 8th costrochondral junction, travels rearward and crosses the middle of the 11th rib and terminates near the 13th rib. His lungs are too big and rectangular shaped. They taper more than that from back to front. They don't come straight down and occupy that much space.

Stop the video when you can see the entire side of the deer. If you draw a straight line from the point of the hip bone to the point of the elbow, everything above the line will be lung. Everything below the line will be abdominal cavity.
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby slim9300 » 01 21, 2018 •  [Post 7]

jmez wrote:I disagree with his model. The diaphragmatic line of pleural reflection starts at the 7th or 8th costrochondral junction, travels rearward and crosses the middle of the 11th rib and terminates near the 13th rib. His lungs are too big and rectangular shaped. They taper more than that from back to front. They don't come straight down and occupy that much space.

Stop the video when you can see the entire side of the deer. If you draw a straight line from the point of the hip bone to the point of the elbow, everything above the line will be lung. Everything below the line will be abdominal cavity.


The foam diagram he creates shows that the rear of the lungs go back to the 12th thoracic vertebrae (you can actually count, it’s that accurate). You are right. There is slightly more of a taper forward on an actual lung (see below), but the actual inflated lungs are closer to vertical in the rear than any depiction I have ever seen give them credit for (when inflated), not to mention they are much larger. As they deflate the lungs the taper becomes more pronounced. His claim is that when the animal is alive and being looked at via ultrasound or X-ray, the diagram and bone structure interferes with ones ability to judge the full size and true shape of the inflated lung. Which explains how they can be depicted as having a much sharper angle like this...

[img]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180121/ca8761a1a272633931e18919a84b4268.jpg[/img]

This screenshot is taken at about the 32 minute mark as he inflated the lungs. At 33 minutes you can see the deflated lungs after seeing them inflated. I encourage you to watch the entire video. I found it interesting.

[img]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180121/4fb26ad85149b628a611a30fca3c365f.jpg[/img]

[img]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180121/a6adc7b518541ec4e3db0f78bd1f0947.jpg[/img]

https://youtu.be/L6cLLHsMnL4

https://youtu.be/zMZ-5QFLIPM




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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby jmez » 01 22, 2018 •  [Post 8]

His claim is that when the animal is alive and being looked at via ultrasound or X-ray, the diagram and bone structure interferes with ones ability to judge the full size and true shape of the inflated lung.


That claim makes absolutely no sense? We use x ray and ultrasound all the time to definitively outline and locate structures. It is very accurate.
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby Wyo67 » 01 22, 2018 •  [Post 9]

slim9300 wrote:
The opposing school of thought is shooting the elk in the ‘middle’ (in terms of height) and a few inches back from the bone structure. This was what was taught to me by my dad and learned from killing 51 elk in his lifetime (2/3 with his bow). The reasoning for moving away from this way of thinking was both the blood trail and that an errand shot into the guts means the elk is dead but rarely recovered.

Here’s the problem. I clearly watched two bulls (from the same angle as the shooter) this season take 470 grain arrows going 280 FPS with small fixed broadheads, in what I would deem the ‘perfect’ location. Both shots were inside of 25 yards. One of them the lower part of the scapula must have been back and deflected the arrow upwards and over the animal. The arrow was recovered in two complete pieces with only blood on the broadhead. The lighted nock allowed me to watch the arrow tumble over the elk and never gain access into the cavity. The arrow snapped as it hit the back of the elk. The other elk the arrow must have hit the very left side of the ball of the shoulder or the top of the humerus. Either way it looked ideal (certainly not too low) until I realized the arrow hit with a smack and simply fell to the feet of the elk. The entire steel broadhead came apart and the steel ferrule split in two. There was no blood on the shaft and we watched the bull walk away stiff legged and confused for a couple hundred yards.

Here’s my point. Watching this video and seeing the shape and size of an inflated lung, why would anyone come up the leg and shoot tight with it? Why risk contact with the heavy bone of an elk? I know it works, I have killed many with this method. In 2012 I killed a 6x6 by breaking its humerus and ‘defecting’ the arrow into the bull’s heart. But it was luck that I wasn’t a 1/4” lower. This is coming from a guy the strongly argued the opposite just last year and for years prior (on this site). [WHITE SMILING FACE]️

Either way. This is a good time for a discussion. The season is 231 days away but who’s counting?



Good post slim. Not to hijack the thread into a broadhead debate, but I have some questions and comments.

- I agree with your Dad regarding aiming point. If an elk is broadside, I'm aiming 1/2 way up the body, a few inches behind where the leg comes up (just behind the "V"). I'm hampered by a short draw length and simply can't fling 450ish grain arrows at speeds approaching 300fps, so I am definitely trying to avoid the heavy leg bone structure. I think this point gives me the best opportunity to hit both lungs and cut as much of the major vessels Swede discusses. I'm shooting about 260fps with a 423 grain arrow (FMJs).

- You discuss perfect shots under 25yds with a "small" fixed broadhead failure. As I said, I don't want to hijack the thread, but what size and types of broadheads were they? I've seen a Muzzy come apart on a buddy's quartering away shot, but still kill the animal (quite a few years back when we were still gutting elk). While this year, I had a left-side 40yd broadside shot at a cow elk that looked and sounded perfect. Yet, when we used the gutless method on her, I was very surprised to see a perfect broadhead shaped entrance and exit wounds on the opposite side (right) foreleg. All I can think of is I hit a rib and it deflected downward through the kill zone and came out the thoracic cavity and through the leg. Arrow found in two pieces, but the Montec broadhead still in perfect shape. We all strive for the perfect pass-through, but any ER Doc or combat medic will tell you bullets or other projectiles do funny things when they enter the body.

- Curious to as to what type of arrows were snapping as well. I'm looking at moving away from the FMJs as I have several older ones that will not spin test very well with broadheads and I am leaning more towards Black Eagle or Carbon Express.
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby >>>---WW----> » 01 22, 2018 •  [Post 10]

I tend to agree with Jmez. When taking a shot, we need to consider that the animal may be exhaling when the arrow arrives. Therefore, the lungs could possibly be deflated and at their smallest size. I will say that the guy makes one of the best deer targets I have ever seen. However, there is no way the lungs are squared of in the back as he represents. His video where he inflates the lungs proves the foam lungs in his target are out of proportion to the real ones.
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby slim9300 » 01 22, 2018 •  [Post 11]

Wyo67 wrote:
slim9300 wrote:
The opposing school of thought is shooting the elk in the ‘middle’ (in terms of height) and a few inches back from the bone structure. This was what was taught to me by my dad and learned from killing 51 elk in his lifetime (2/3 with his bow). The reasoning for moving away from this way of thinking was both the blood trail and that an errand shot into the guts means the elk is dead but rarely recovered.

Here’s the problem. I clearly watched two bulls (from the same angle as the shooter) this season take 470 grain arrows going 280 FPS with small fixed broadheads, in what I would deem the ‘perfect’ location. Both shots were inside of 25 yards. One of them the lower part of the scapula must have been back and deflected the arrow upwards and over the animal. The arrow was recovered in two complete pieces with only blood on the broadhead. The lighted nock allowed me to watch the arrow tumble over the elk and never gain access into the cavity. The arrow snapped as it hit the back of the elk. The other elk the arrow must have hit the very left side of the ball of the shoulder or the top of the humerus. Either way it looked ideal (certainly not too low) until I realized the arrow hit with a smack and simply fell to the feet of the elk. The entire steel broadhead came apart and the steel ferrule split in two. There was no blood on the shaft and we watched the bull walk away stiff legged and confused for a couple hundred yards.

Here’s my point. Watching this video and seeing the shape and size of an inflated lung, why would anyone come up the leg and shoot tight with it? Why risk contact with the heavy bone of an elk? I know it works, I have killed many with this method. In 2012 I killed a 6x6 by breaking its humerus and ‘defecting’ the arrow into the bull’s heart. But it was luck that I wasn’t a 1/4” lower. This is coming from a guy the strongly argued the opposite just last year and for years prior (on this site). [WHITE SMILING FACE]️

Either way. This is a good time for a discussion. The season is 231 days away but who’s counting?



Good post slim. Not to hijack the thread into a broadhead debate, but I have some questions and comments.

- I agree with your Dad regarding aiming point. If an elk is broadside, I'm aiming 1/2 way up the body, a few inches behind where the leg comes up (just behind the "V"). I'm hampered by a short draw length and simply can't fling 450ish grain arrows at speeds approaching 300fps, so I am definitely trying to avoid the heavy leg bone structure. I think this point gives me the best opportunity to hit both lungs and cut as much of the major vessels Swede discusses. I'm shooting about 260fps with a 423 grain arrow (FMJs).

- You discuss perfect shots under 25yds with a "small" fixed broadhead failure. As I said, I don't want to hijack the thread, but what size and types of broadheads were they? I've seen a Muzzy come apart on a buddy's quartering away shot, but still kill the animal (quite a few years back when we were still gutting elk). While this year, I had a left-side 40yd broadside shot at a cow elk that looked and sounded perfect. Yet, when we used the gutless method on her, I was very surprised to see a perfect broadhead shaped entrance and exit wounds on the opposite side (right) foreleg. All I can think of is I hit a rib and it deflected downward through the kill zone and came out the thoracic cavity and through the leg. Arrow found in two pieces, but the Montec broadhead still in perfect shape. We all strive for the perfect pass-through, but any ER Doc or combat medic will tell you bullets or other projectiles do funny things when they enter the body.

- Curious to as to what type of arrows were snapping as well. I'm looking at moving away from the FMJs as I have several older ones that will not spin test very well with broadheads and I am leaning more towards Black Eagle or Carbon Express.


Probably the most durable and flexible carbon arrow (other than the Pro Hunter). GT Velocity Pro with a Slick Trick 100 grain mag. I have shot multiple deer with the same arrow and used the same arrow for many hundreds of shots into targets, so I’m not worried about arrow durability.


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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby slim9300 » 01 22, 2018 •  [Post 12]

>>>---WW----> wrote:I tend to agree with Jmez. When taking a shot, we need to consider that the animal may be exhaling when the arrow arrives. Therefore, the lungs could possibly be deflated and at their smallest size. I will say that the guy makes one of the best deer targets I have ever seen. However, there is no way the lungs are squared of in the back as he represents. His video where he inflates the lungs proves the foam lungs in his target are out of proportion to the real ones.


I think my adjusted aiming point seems to be the best compromise, even if the lungs aren’t quite as long as portrayed. No matter what, it still makes more sense statistically than shooting the V.


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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby slim9300 » 01 22, 2018 •  [Post 13]

[QUOTE=slim9300;1107035195]Here is where I will aim going forward versus where I aimed for the last 5 years. On an elk it’s probably about 6” difference (a large amount) and on a deer only about 3”.

[img]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180121/54723aebeaedc026bca90b3e93c52d23.jpg[/img]

[img]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180121/ec17106b29d232fdc145519e2a15556c.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]




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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby Swede » 01 22, 2018 •  [Post 14]

Wyo67: I have changed arrows numerous times over the years. It is unfortunate that the manufacturers change what they offer too often, so you won't be able to replace lost or broken arrows with the exact same thing five years later. I look for the heaviest carbon arrows I can find, with a .003 inch straightness or better, and not weight forward. I really don't care if the arrows are perfectly matched in weight. By the time I fletch them, I know they are not perfectly the same in weight, and a couple of grains difference effects nothing.
I have Carbon Express and Beaman. Slim's GT Velocity Pro sounds like a good place to start, Another thing I look at is price. I have found that I can loose a very expensive arrow just as easy as a moderately priced one.
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby olympushunt » 01 22, 2018 •  [Post 15]

jmez wrote:
His claim is that when the animal is alive and being looked at via ultrasound or X-ray, the diagram and bone structure interferes with ones ability to judge the full size and true shape of the inflated lung.


That claim makes absolutely no sense? We use x ray and ultrasound all the time to definitively outline and locate structures. It is very accurate.


I hope you aren't using ultrasound to look at lungs. You won't see much. Inflated ones anyway. Ultrasound and air are not friends. Best stick with the ol xrays or even better stickem in a CT or MR scanner for the air bags. I think ultrasound is mostly vodoo science anyway. :roll:
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby >>>---WW----> » 01 22, 2018 •  [Post 16]

slim9300 wrote:
>>>---WW----> wrote:I tend to agree with Jmez. When taking a shot, we need to consider that the animal may be exhaling when the arrow arrives. Therefore, the lungs could possibly be deflated and at their smallest size. I will say that the guy makes one of the best deer targets I have ever seen. However, there is no way the lungs are squared of in the back as he represents. His video where he inflates the lungs proves the foam lungs in his target are out of proportion to the real ones.


I think my adjusted aiming point seems to be the best compromise, even if the lungs aren’t quite as long as portrayed. No matter what, it still makes more sense statistically than shooting the V.


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Sounds great Slim! That's exactly where my aiming point has been forever, right up the crease!
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby jmez » 01 22, 2018 •  [Post 17]

You can see the surface of the lung with U/S, unless they have a pneumothorax. Cant see anything below the surface, unless they have consolidation, abscesses, fluid, tumors, etc. Very easy to outline the surface of the lung with an U/S.
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby olympushunt » 01 22, 2018 •  [Post 18]

To be fair I haven't looked at the examples Slim showed but I was basically agreeing with it being difficult to visualize the entire lung field (shape, volume, location etc) with sonar. At least diagnostic medical grade ultrasound. You are correct though as you can see lung lining in that small sector or linear screen but as far as seeing the entire lungs in the chest cavity? Uh uh.
I'm not sure anyone runs 3D lung scans with ultrasound either.... so you are only seeing 2D when you are looking at the "surface". Maybe the kind they run west of the Rockies is behind the east side. But I digress....I'm am off the original point. I do think it is fascinating to think of the vitals we aim at in a 3D capacity. Putting thought into where that arrow will dissect is very important before releasing the hounds. Thinking about more than the entrance will pay big dividends.
I am adding on to this as I posted before finishing as I was rudely interrupted by another one of those dang ultrasounds. I think this is a great post by Slim. And yes it is a LONG darn time till season comes around corner again. I'm not sure I agree with Swede's earlier post about one lung comment. Of course he is right as he states it isn't necessary to take out both lungs. True. They can/will die even with both lungs fully up and running if you take out enough vascular or that pumpy thingy low in their chest...another poor target to aim at. I botched a shot badly one year hitting the femoral and both lungs were very much intact but he went down in a heap leaving a heckuva blood trail. I think he went maybe 100 yards tops. But I fear some might read into that "I'm ok with this severe angle because I will get one lung down and hope to take out enough vessels or heart with it." My cow this year had me very much looking her over before shooting. I was quite concerned I would take out only one lung. She was only 10 yards from me directly below and almost facing directly away. She was very slightly quartered away enough I felt if I put that bhead along a line just right of her spine and on down through her chest it would do the job. It did....she went maybe 80 yards. But I was mentally watching the arrow travel through her before pulling the trigger.
I remember one year a long long time ago Swede and I looked for miles and days for a spike that obviously had one lung taken out. You remember that bull Todd shot at Old Faithful Swede? Bright, foamy lung blood spraying in a good pool but that critter didn't die. If it did it wasn't in that county. I was positive seeing that blood that he wouldn't make it. One lung isn't a goal I would shoot for....no pun intended.
I think we all can take a closer look under the hide and see what's what and where.
Oh and one more thing...Jmez and others. As a late pastor once told me ( I steal some of his lines now and again) I do reserve the right to be wrong. lol
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby Wyo67 » 01 22, 2018 •  [Post 19]

Swede wrote:Wyo67: I have changed arrows numerous times over the years. It is unfortunate that the manufacturers change what they offer too often, so you won't be able to replace lost or broken arrows with the exact same thing five years later. I look for the heaviest carbon arrows I can find, with a .003 inch straightness or better, and not weight forward. I really don't care if the arrows are perfectly matched in weight. By the time I fletch them, I know they are not perfectly the same in weight, and a couple of grains difference effects nothing.
I have Carbon Express and Beaman. Slim's GT Velocity Pro sounds like a good place to start, Another thing I look at is price. I have found that I can loose a very expensive arrow just as easy as a moderately priced one.


Thanks Swede. I'm the same way now. I've been shooting the FMJ 340's for the last couple of years and would like to go as heavy as possible to help keep up my KE with my short draw length. Agree that a few grains doesn't make much of a difference, but when your arrow weight goes from 11.3gpi to around 9gpi, it does make a difference from about 30yd and further out.
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby Swede » 01 22, 2018 •  [Post 20]

olympushunt wrote:I remember one year a long long time ago Swede and I looked for miles and days for a spike that obviously had one lung taken out. You remember that bull Todd shot at Old Faithful Swede? Bright, foamy lung blood spraying in a good pool but that critter didn't die. If it did it wasn't in that county. I was positive seeing that blood that he wouldn't make it. One lung isn't a goal I would shoot for....no pun intended. I think we all can take a closer look under the hide and see what's what and where.


I remember that incident well. I did some research after because I was so surprised we could not find his bull. I talked to a guide that said that situation, where the bull stands and coughs, and looks like he is going down any second is fairly common. Todd should have shot him again, even though the angle was strong quartering away, as he had plenty of time. The country was open, and I just knew we would find the elk dead nearby soon. The problem is that he did not die. We never found evidence of any lost elk in that country.

I do not look for one lung shots, but am satisfied I have hit only one on steep down angle shots. The thing that makes that shot work is slicing veins and arteries near the heart.
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby Wyo67 » 01 22, 2018 •  [Post 21]

[/quote]

Probably the most durable and flexible carbon arrow (other than the Pro Hunter). GT Velocity Pro with a Slick Trick 100 grain mag. I have shot multiple deer with the same arrow and used the same arrow for many hundreds of shots into targets, so I’m not worried about arrow durability.


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Hmmm.. Surprised by the Slick Trick failures. I used them to take my first two elk (profile pic was one. Taken with a frontal at 15yds - another potential bag of worms :lol: ) and I wouldn't hesitate to use them again. I just went with the Montecs a couple years ago due to the solid steel construction and the ease in which you can hone their sharpness.
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby Swede » 01 22, 2018 •  [Post 22]

Wyo67 wrote:when your arrow weight goes from 11.3gpi to around 9gpi, it does make a difference from about 30yd and further out.


That is true. I don't make that drastic a change very often. When you make that much of a change I suppose you will need to retune your bow too???
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby Elkhunttoo » 01 22, 2018 •  [Post 23]

Swede wrote:Wyo67: I have changed arrows numerous times over the years. It is unfortunate that the manufacturers change what they offer too often, so you won't be able to replace lost or broken arrows with the exact same thing five years later. I look for the heaviest carbon arrows I can find, with a .003 inch straightness or better, and not weight forward. I really don't care if the arrows are perfectly matched in weight. By the time I fletch them, I know they are not perfectly the same in weight, and a couple of grains difference effects nothing.
I have Carbon Express and Beaman. Slim's GT Velocity Pro sounds like a good place to start, Another thing I look at is price. I have found that I can loose a very expensive arrow just as easy as a moderately priced one.



Your lucky!!! I loose the expensive ones way easier then the cheap ones. :)
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby Swede » 01 22, 2018 •  [Post 24]

Elkhunttoo wrote:Your lucky!!! I loose the expensive ones way easier then the cheap ones.


No. I have a secret method that keeps things in some balance. I buy mostly cheap arrows.
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby Wyo67 » 01 23, 2018 •  [Post 25]

Swede wrote:
Wyo67 wrote:when your arrow weight goes from 11.3gpi to around 9gpi, it does make a difference from about 30yd and further out.


That is true. I don't make that drastic a change very often. When you make that much of a change I suppose you will need to retune your bow too???


Went to the heavier arrows in summer of 2016 when I bought my Hoyt Charger and haven't had to make any tuning changes since I got it dialed in. That's one of the reasons I'm looking at the Carbon Express Piledriver and Black Eagle Deep Impacts if I decide to go away from the FMJs. It's not easy trying to balance my wants and needs for my hunting and hockey budgets! :lol:
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby ishy » 01 23, 2018 •  [Post 26]

slim9300 wrote:
Here’s my point. Watching this video and seeing the shape and size of an inflated lung, why would anyone come up the leg and shoot tight with it? Why risk contact with the heavy bone of an elk? I know it works, I have killed many with this method. In 2012 I killed a 6x6 by breaking its humerus and ‘defecting’ the arrow into the bull’s heart. But it was luck that I wasn’t a 1/4” lower. This is coming from a guy the strongly argued the opposite just last year and for years prior (on this site). [WHITE SMILING FACE]️


I have a couple of thoughts on this, not so much where the lungs end(have had my own nightmare clipping lungs too far back on a great moose) but on all the targets representations of the >. Every target I look at I can't help but think the actual bone structure is represented at it's farthest forward point possible. The photo of the elk with moose vitals photo shopped into it-I get the same feeling that they are pushing everything too far forward. We've all watched elk walk when you can see the bone structure and you can see that > get bigger, smaller, and even flatten completely depending on leg position yet every target shows it open like the red sea. Then to further compound the issue at 3D shoots they give us extra points for hugging (hitting) those big heavy bones! I just think we aren't doing anyone a favor, and would probably save a ton of nightmare hunts if bones were represented in the farthest back instead of too far forward. Every year I think I'm going to dissect an elk shoulder and move it around on video and then we'd know for sure.
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby Elkduds » 01 23, 2018 •  [Post 27]

The internal placement of organs in an elk is different while standing and alive, than laying dead. I'm not convinced I've seen a completely accurate representation of a living elk, in this thread or on the interweb. Color me skeptical.
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby Swede » 01 23, 2018 •  [Post 28]

It sure looks like the vitals displayed are anatomically accurate enough to be used by hunters. If you are shooting for the extreme edges/margins you could have problems. On the other hand, if you shoot for the center, and hit within six inches on an elk, or 4 inches on a deer, you should experience the speedy recovery of a dead critter. I could care less if the extreme edges are a little inflated or deflated. I don't plan to go there anyway. That is why I keep my shot distance down to 40 yards or less.
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby Elkduds » 01 23, 2018 •  [Post 29]

Swede wrote: If you are shooting for the extreme edges/margins you could have problems. On the other hand, if you shoot for the center, and hit within six inches on an elk, or 4 inches on a deer, you should experience the speedy recovery of a dead critter. I could care less if the extreme edges are a little inflated or deflated. I don't plan to go there anyway. That is why I keep my shot distance down to 40 yards or less.


This is what I meant to convey. Clearly stated, thanks, Swede.
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 01 23, 2018 •  [Post 30]

Interesting topic.
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby Swede » 01 23, 2018 •  [Post 31]

Elkduds is right, and this is interesting. I just hope nobody is timing their shot based on when the elk inhales or exhales. :lol:
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby slim9300 » 01 23, 2018 •  [Post 32]

ishy wrote:
slim9300 wrote:
Here’s my point. Watching this video and seeing the shape and size of an inflated lung, why would anyone come up the leg and shoot tight with it? Why risk contact with the heavy bone of an elk? I know it works, I have killed many with this method. In 2012 I killed a 6x6 by breaking its humerus and ‘defecting’ the arrow into the bull’s heart. But it was luck that I wasn’t a 1/4” lower. This is coming from a guy the strongly argued the opposite just last year and for years prior (on this site). [WHITE SMILING FACE]️


I have a couple of thoughts on this, not so much where the lungs end(have had my own nightmare clipping lungs too far back on a great moose) but on all the targets representations of the >. Every target I look at I can't help but think the actual bone structure is represented at it's farthest forward point possible. The photo of the elk with moose vitals photo shopped into it-I get the same feeling that they are pushing everything too far forward. We've all watched elk walk when you can see the bone structure and you can see that > get bigger, smaller, and even flatten completely depending on leg position yet every target shows it open like the red sea. Then to further compound the issue at 3D shoots they give us extra points for hugging (hitting) those big heavy bones! I just think we aren't doing anyone a favor, and would probably save a ton of nightmare hunts if bones were represented in the farthest back instead of too far forward. Every year I think I'm going to dissect an elk shoulder and move it around on video and then we'd know for sure.


I totally agree. It’s hard to tell especially at 40+ yards. More reason for me to move my aiming point. [WHITE SMILING FACE]️

Maybe I’ll try that video next year. I always bone them out attached anyways.


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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby slim9300 » 01 23, 2018 •  [Post 33]

Wyo67 wrote:


Probably the most durable and flexible carbon arrow (other than the Pro Hunter). GT Velocity Pro with a Slick Trick 100 grain mag. I have shot multiple deer with the same arrow and used the same arrow for many hundreds of shots into targets, so I’m not worried about arrow durability.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/quote]

Hmmm.. Surprised by the Slick Trick failures. I used them to take my first two elk (profile pic was one. Taken with a frontal at 15yds - another potential bag of worms :lol: ) and I wouldn't hesitate to use them again. I just went with the Montecs a couple years ago due to the solid steel construction and the ease in which you can hone their sharpness.[/quote]

It’s the manufacturing process since being bought out from the old owner (oldhootowl on A-T). When it was German steel blades they were much better. But we even had ferrule shatter this year in 2-3 pieces. It basically split down the middle after hitting the heavy shoulder bone. Now it didn’t matter since the arrow got 1” of penetration, but it was more than concerning for the quality of the steel being used. Bone should not cause steel to fail imho. It’s actually pretty soft.


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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby Joe Schmo » 01 23, 2018 •  [Post 34]

Slim, you and your partner have kilt almost 3 elk a year for 5 years...that’s friggin awesome!! Congratulations!! Shot placement haunt me as well. Can you speak to the experience of killing that many animals with a arrow and broadhead and what you have learned from the resulting autopsies??
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Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby slim9300 » 01 27, 2018 •  [Post 35]

Joe Schmo wrote:Slim, you and your partner have kilt almost 3 elk a year for 5 years...that’s friggin awesome!! Congratulations!! Shot placement haunt me as well. Can you speak to the experience of killing that many animals with a arrow and broadhead and what you have learned from the resulting autopsies??


Thank you. I spend an incredible amount of time elk hunting or preparing for elk hunting. What kind of stuff are you curious about?


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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby Joe Schmo » 01 27, 2018 •  [Post 36]

Well you’ve had more experience shooting elk with a bow and arrow that most archery hunters in the world and now you’re contemplating changing things up.
This speaks to the reason I dislike archery...there is that s#@&* happens factor that is out of your control, even if you make a “perfect” shot. I personally should spend more time studying anatomy but I’m a guy who would aim more towards the middle and behind the bone structure as opposed to straight up the leg. Still it haunts me the possibility of wounding a bull and not finding it.
Sorry, so my question is: what have you learned from your killshots on 17 bulls, were they mostly heart shots? As you say that it’s basically that or bone. We’re there many shots that ended up being back from the heart that worked just as well? Double lung? What were some times that a well placed arrow ended up not being effective and hence shoulda been placed elsewhere?
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby slim9300 » 02 07, 2018 •  [Post 37]

[QUOTE=slim9300;1107157223]I saw Jim Burnworth re-inflate the lungs on a cow elk on his show today. I wish I could post the video but I can’t find it. The guts were in the animal so they prevented the lungs from pushing further back into the cavity, as claimed by those watching the deer video. I just wish they took better footage from different angles. But I think he may be the first to re-inflate elk lungs on video.

This was with and without inflation.

[img]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180204/b25e9876a6ed9a59e58b7f3b1befc7e0.jpg[/img][img]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180204/b209ebaa1b4535c546f44b708c1a06d4.jpg[/img]


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Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby slim9300 » 02 07, 2018 •  [Post 38]

Joe Schmo wrote:Well you’ve had more experience shooting elk with a bow and arrow that most archery hunters in the world and now you’re contemplating changing things up.
This speaks to the reason I dislike archery...there is that s#@&* happens factor that is out of your control, even if you make a “perfect” shot. I personally should spend more time studying anatomy but I’m a guy who would aim more towards the middle and behind the bone structure as opposed to straight up the leg. Still it haunts me the possibility of wounding a bull and not finding it.
Sorry, so my question is: what have you learned from your killshots on 17 bulls, were they mostly heart shots? As you say that it’s basically that or bone. We’re there many shots that ended up being back from the heart that worked just as well? Double lung? What were some times that a well placed arrow ended up not being effective and hence shoulda been placed elsewhere?


I have killed 22 elk I believe (21 with a bow). I would have to look at my hunting diary to make sure it’s not one off. 9 have been bulls and the rest cows. I’m not much of a trophy hunter.

With that said, I have only killed two with a heart shot that I can recall, but in all honesty I could be missing one or two. My first heart shot was with a muzzleloader and the other my 2012 bull. I used to aim just above the heart but that only lasted a few years after buying into the ‘V theory’. Most of my elk have been shot in the lungs and one in the liver. A few were shot in less ideal places but effective of course (accidental).

I think a double lung shot closer to the heart is the fastest death but get both lungs with a good broadhead and it’s all over. I shot a cow once right over the heart by about an 1”. She took one step and went tits up. I truly disconnected her pump station. Stone dead in 5 seconds. I have never seen anything like it. Keep in mind she was 2.5 years old and had no idea what happened. I killed another young cow once that died in less than 10 seconds double lunged. Ran 10 yards and died mid stride.

I don’t ever see myself killing an elk with a rifle. I enjoy deer hunting with a rifle and I shoot a ton of long range, but don’t really have much desire to hunt elk with one. Maybe if it was REAL big! Lol


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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby >>>---WW----> » 02 08, 2018 •  [Post 39]

Right on Conlin! Double lung is the way to go. When thinking of the so called (V), just think of the ruined shoulder roast. Especially with a rifle!! Also when doing the double lung, about all you are going to mess up is a rib or two. Not much meat there anyhow.
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby Joe Schmo » 02 08, 2018 •  [Post 40]

Thanks for the info. So suffice it to say that you're going away from the "straight up the leg, 1/3 up" approach and being 3-4" back from straight up the leg and about 1/2 way up the body, please correct me if I'm wrong...I'm here to gather knowledge.
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Re: Archery elk shot placement revisited...

Postby slim9300 » 04 01, 2019 •  [Post 41]

Joe Schmo wrote:Thanks for the info. So suffice it to say that you're going away from the "straight up the leg, 1/3 up" approach and being 3-4" back from straight up the leg and about 1/2 way up the body, please correct me if I'm wrong...I'm here to gather knowledge.


ef3b3fd130a397d9658d4ba96200a8e3.jpg
ef3b3fd130a397d9658d4ba96200a8e3.jpg (60.41 KiB) Viewed 1003 times


Take a look at my Rage Trypan thread for my reasoning. I’ll take this shot above 100% of the time with full confidence (not that I wouldn’t before). It will yield liver and double lung and the elk will go maybe 60 yards.
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