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Help!! Can't put it to bed.

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Help!! Can't put it to bed.

Postby Ridgerunner365 » 01 06, 2013 •  [Post 1]

First about me: (Not that it is important but might help getting to know me)

-This is my first post on ANY forum. (I like the tone of this one)
-Hunted elk 9 years total
-Hunted archery elk 9 years
-Hunted rifle elk 3 years
-Killed 3 antlerless (2 archery, 1 rifle)
-Will still take any legal elk
-Hunting elk with a bow has changed my life!!

Scenario:

Same elevation of a wallow on a mountain side where I know there are elk that morning. I know this mountIns well. 150 yards from a wallow I lost cow call and immediately get a half scream from the wallow. I shut up and move in as quick as possible. The first 100 yards are easy because its pines then its an aspen grove that is like walking on on potato chips. I only move the last 50 yards when he is pawing or raking in the wallow. The wind is still moving down steady on an east slope about 7:20ish am. My choice is to move up and maybe get winded (longer shot) or stay low and have a closer but more narrow lane. I choose lower and more favorable wind. At about 35 yards the bull nervous grunts once then squeals right away. I felt all he didn't smell or see me so I felt all I could do is softly cow call twice. Then he nervous grunts again and moves away slowly.

Question:

Should I have not called and waited for him to settle back in? I know they don't like company. He didn't have cows. Or is there some other communication that could haved helped? Or should I chalk it up to "just the way the cards were dealt".

I love learning and the hunt.
I have elknuts 4 pack and Sounds by the Elk.
I still have A LOT to learn and always will.

Thanks for the input,

Chris

PS. I'll try to post a picture of the bull from a camera WHEN I was stalking in on him. I'm to the left but not in the picture.
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Re: Help!! Can't put it to bed.

Postby Ridgerunner365 » 01 06, 2013 •  [Post 2]

The site says my pic is too big. Sorry ill try the picture later.
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Re: Help!! Can't put it to bed.

Postby foxvalley » 01 07, 2013 •  [Post 3]

Welcome to the fun Ridgerunner365!

My guess is that if he gave you a nervous grunt,he wanted to see you,he heard your calls,and he probably heard you coming towards him,but when you didn't show yourself,he got nervous. Seems to me they don't like to be bothered at a wallow.
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Re: Help!! Can't put it to bed.

Postby ElkNut1 » 01 07, 2013 •  [Post 4]

Chris, thanks for stopping by, it's appreciated.

Resize your photo to 750 pixels, you should be able to do it since it's already on your PC. Go to your photo & right click, near the top of drop down box you'll see the option "edit" left click it. A new screen comes up, look to far top left side & you will see an option to "resize" left click it. A smaller window appears, click the pixels button, it's generally the button not highlighted. Just under that you'll see a large number in the 3489 aprox. Backspace it clear & enter 750, save it, when you do a larger partial photo will show up, click the red box on top right to close. When you do it will ask if you want to" save", click it & you are done resizing. You can do lots of photos like this as most Sites have a limit to photo size. You can now post your photo!


On your question. When you cow called & received your response from 150yds out the bull was calling you his way. Moving up 50yds or so with cover & good wind cow call again, let him know you're coming as he's inviting you to do so. Noise is not a factor here as long as he cannot see or smell you, he will think it's the cow coming! Stay with the cover & close the distance, no need to call anymore there as you already planted the seed. --- Once you did call again there's a good chance he could look in the direction of your calling & see no elk, this immediately made him nervous so he asked you to come out with the nervous grunt & short bugle. You no doubt were in his view as you did get his photo, if you could see him he could see where the sounds were coming from, bad move! (grin) Best thing would have been to move his way until you could get to bowrange or you ran out of cover, still no need to call, he knows you're out there (this cow) he will likely go into search mode & give a look to see where you are, be patient, he may even try to draw you in with raking a tree or brush in a displaying action & bugle again, this is a common occurrence, that could be your chance for reposition or a shot opportunity. The real bull may be a little cautious as he does not know if there's a bull with you. Keep it simple & don't let him see or smell you. --- I will add phase of the rut & his aggressiveness to your cow calls could also dictate a more aggressive approach on your part as a further option. More than one way to skin a cat. (grin)

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Re: Help!! Can't put it to bed.

Postby Ridgerunner365 » 01 07, 2013 •  [Post 5]

Here is a picture of the bull when I am stalking in on him. The picture was taken from a trail camera I set up on the wallow (no way I am able to hunt and take pictures, I am not that good at multitasking haha). I could only see his antlers every once in a while and had good cover between us the whole way in. I also, thought he was much smaller until I checked the trail camera. He is not the biggest guy in the woods but would be very happy with him. And I was happy just having the encounter and pics of him while I was on my way in to him!
photo 1.JPG
photo 1.JPG (211.75 KiB) Viewed 10146 times

Elknut thanks for the help on posting pictures.

The only 2 calls I made were the intial lost cow call from 150 yards away (then his half scream). Then the 2 soft herd talk type cow calls (from 35 yards) only after his nervous grunt and squeal and I only made those soft cow calls because I wanted him to think "COW" with whatever triggered his nervous grunt. I had "the bull wants to be alone in my head" (like foxvalley posted) because I knew he was on a wallow and I was trying to be as quiet as possible. It makes sense he was probably calling me in now. And another cow call to signal the cow was coming in makes sense. One of the hardest things is reading the situation. But that is also what makes it fun too.

Thanks for the replies and the welcome.

Chris
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Re: Help!! Can't put it to bed.

Postby buglmin » 01 07, 2013 •  [Post 6]

You were roughly 35 yards away from this bull when you cow called twice? Think about it...the bull is uphill from you, and cant see the cows he heard just a short distance away...no wonder he got nervous.
What would I have done? I would of calf called, then answered myself with a cow call answered by a cow call. I want the bull to think I'm a cow that cant go his way cause of my calf...I want the bull to come to me to pick up the cow and the calf. I want to set up where he cant get a good view and see below him, so I would of side hilled it and made him come to me that way. If he grunted or squealed all i would of done is calf called. He would of came in...
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Re: Help!! Can't put it to bed.

Postby stringunner » 01 07, 2013 •  [Post 7]

What about a nervous grunt back to him?
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Re: Help!! Can't put it to bed.

Postby Swede » 01 07, 2013 •  [Post 8]

I would probably have stayed quiet when I got to within 35 yards. If he started to leave without presenting me a shot, then I may have tried a cow call or a nervous grunt. The use of the nervous grunt would have depended on how long it had been since he hit me with one. I like Buglmin's idea. It sounds good. Of coarse it is easy to say what I would have done differently when someone else could not close the deal. I too have been there many times.
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Re: Help!! Can't put it to bed.

Postby 2Tangled2 » 01 08, 2013 •  [Post 9]

Welcome Ridgerunner. I had an encounter similar to your's this year that I started a post on (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1005#p11656)(Do Cows Nervous Grunt Too...) here, and one of the responses that I received was I should of instigated the nervous grunt first. In doing so, there might of been a chance that he would of came looking for you. It's sounds like this happen quite often, my bull was at a wallow bugling, I came in from below him, and he came running in and let out a bugle with some chuckles because he heard me coming in. Other than the shouting match that we got into, it was pretty much the same thing. I do like Buglemin's scenario though, just in case I forget to nervous grunt first.
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Re: Help!! Can't put it to bed.

Postby foxvalley » 01 08, 2013 •  [Post 10]

buglmin wrote:You were roughly 35 yards away from this bull when you cow called twice? Think about it...the bull is uphill from you, and cant see the cows he heard just a short distance away...no wonder he got nervous.
What would I have done? I would of calf called, then answered myself with a cow call answered by a cow call. I want the bull to think I'm a cow that cant go his way cause of my calf...I want the bull to come to me to pick up the cow and the calf. I want to set up where he cant get a good view and see below him, so I would of side hilled it and made him come to me that way. If he grunted or squealed all i would of done is calf called. He would of came in...


Buglmin,
I really like the idea of the calf call,like it's lost,and have the cow reluctently call once to the calf,that way you are indirectly letting the bull know where you are,without sounding like you are to willing,or want anything to do with the bull,which should bring him in,just because he doesn't know if you are interested in him or not.
I did something close to that to get a whitetail doe to come in to me ,that was being chased by a large buck. I knew grunting at the buck would do nothing,so I did some really distressfull fawn bleeting.Even though she was being chased, she came screaming in,bringing the buck along with her,to about 8 yards.
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Re: Help!! Can't put it to bed.

Postby >>>---WW----> » 01 08, 2013 •  [Post 11]

Well, no offense intended, but I don't buy buglemin's version either. At 35 yards if you make just one little peep that bull is going to be staring straight at you eyeball to eyeball. If you even blink it's game over. And besides, don't you think that bull knows that both the cow sound and the calf sound came from the exact same spot? At 35 yards if the shot presents itself, I'm taking it. Otherwise, I think I just keep quiet and let the whole situation play out.

The only exception would be if you are a really good caller and know how to throw your calls. By that I mean having the ability to make your calls sound like they are coming from some other place than where you actually are. That way you might accidentally get by making the calf sound farther back in the brush than what it actually is. Then make your next cow call sound farther away as well. This is actually fairly easy to do if you practice it.

Like I said and 35 yards if the shot presents itself on taking it. If the shot isn't there wait until he moves and once he opens up the kill zone give him a nervous bark. That should stop him on a dime.

If you use an open reed call the Temptress by bugling bull works pretty doggone good for casting your sound. (By the way, Elknut sells it on his site) All you need to do is turn your head in another direction and cover the two little holes on the reed end. You'll be surprised how this muffles sound and makes it sound much further away. With a mouth diaphragm, turn your head and you can just cover your mouth with the palm of your hand while making the sound you want. If you want it to sound really far away, putting a cotton gloves on really muffles the sound as you blow through the diaphram.

I suppose there's no truly tried and tested way for this particular situation. But, what I've suggested here has worked for me in the past. I'm not saying it will work every time, but it's worth giving it a shot. And besides, it is often fun just playing with elk to see what kind of reaction you get. Nothing ventured nothing gained. In any case, it's just an extra little tip to throw in your bag of tricks.
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Re: Help!! Can't put it to bed.

Postby cnelk » 01 08, 2013 •  [Post 12]

What WW said...
35 yards is a distance we practice from isn't it?
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Re: Help!! Can't put it to bed.

Postby buglmin » 01 08, 2013 •  [Post 13]

I didnt say to call to him from 35 yards. I said to move side hill so he didnt have the advantage of being higher and to use the cow/calk sounds to bring him into you. At 35 yards, you should have your bow sucked back waiting for the first good shot he offers. And in reality, if hunting alone, after your last call, you should of moved up ahead, so youre not where he is looking when he comes in. You never want a bull above you, he has the advantage to hold up and look downhill to see if he can see the cow. And in reality, if you've already moved to within 35 yards of the bull, why not just sneak a lil closer and kill him?
A lot of elk will answer a calf call, cows and bulls. And yessir, we've even had the big bulls come into a calf call to pick the calf. He knows the cow will come along.
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Re: Help!! Can't put it to bed.

Postby foxvalley » 01 08, 2013 •  [Post 14]

You guys must hunt more open timber,as we have elk 35 yards away and don't even get a glimps,let along drawing back, waiting for a shot! I'm guessing if there was a shot at 35 yards, it would have been taken.
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Re: Help!! Can't put it to bed.

Postby buglmin » 01 08, 2013 •  [Post 15]

Depends sir...up high, with no ground cover, you can see a long ways. Thats where you use the terrian. In aspen patches, it depends on how old the forest is, how thick the aspens are. I love hunting elk in the oak brush now, a place most guys cant/wont hunt. But it does get frusturating when you cant find a hole to shoot through when the bull is in your lap, 5 yards away. Guess thats why I shoot a lot of bulls head on or quartering to me...In New Mexico, in the juniper and pinion, you use the terrian, and clumps of trees to make the bulls come around them.
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Re: Help!! Can't put it to bed.

Postby Ridgerunner365 » 01 08, 2013 •  [Post 16]

Here are a few more pics the trail camera got while he was on the wallow

photo 2.JPG
photo 2.JPG (189.65 KiB) Viewed 10037 times

photo 3.JPG
photo 3.JPG (134.62 KiB) Viewed 10037 times

photo 4.JPG
photo 4.JPG (159.8 KiB) Viewed 10037 times



Sounds like few would iniciate any call at 35 yards because you are downwind, arrow nocked, good cover and you think the bull doesn't know you are close. This was my plan too. But if you are hit with a nervous grunt then a squeal at 35 yards, still with no shot, there seems to be a few different approaches. Thanks for the feed back guys.

Swede, "The use of the nervous grunt would have depended on how long it had been since he hit me with one." would you have hit him right away or did you want more time from when he hit you with the nervous grunt?

WW, Thanks for the tips on the casting your sound. I don't consider myself a really good caller, but because of Elknut's 4 pack of CDs and Sounds by the Elk I am becoming confident in my calling (Thank you Elknut for all your Information). My big problems are reading the bull sometimes and finding good setups within the terrain. Two other encounters the bull did exactly what one would expect but my setups were not right (terrain too open). But I learned and had fun.

Chris
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Re: Help!! Can't put it to bed.

Postby Swede » 01 08, 2013 •  [Post 17]

Ridgerunner, there are several hunters at least, who have a lot more experience using the nervous grunt than I have. I was saying that would be my backup plan. I would prefer to force the issue with your bull if he was not suspicious. It looks like the spot where you were is open enough to find some good shooting lanes at 35 yards. There is also plenty of cover for the bull if he suspects you are there. Foxvalley has a good point too. I and probably others think in terms of how we would do things in our familiar hunting area. Some things are universal, but others are not. Calling in a high pressure area can be a dicey proposition. I use it sparingly, as I know a ranch sanctuary is only one small scare away for any elk.
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Re: Help!! Can't put it to bed.

Postby foxvalley » 01 09, 2013 •  [Post 18]

One more point I would like to make is that (going back to the info in the playbook,thanks again Paul) the nervous grunt he is asking to see you,or confirm what you are. My limited experience with this grunt is that just calling back with a cow call etc isn't enough to put his mind at ease.I think giving him a reason why you can't come out and show yourself would help,like useing one of the threat levels.
Ridgerunner, If we killed every elk that we got close to,there wouldn't be many elk left, and it wouldn't be any fun anymore.LOL
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