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To the 1st or to the last?

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To the 1st or to the last?

Postby welka » 03 23, 2013 •  [Post 1]

Elk are freaks. Most of us who have hunted them for a few years have experienced their ability to find the caller to within a foot - no matter how far away they come from. Set ups do not always produce as planned and hence we have to switch caller/shooter based on where the bull responds from. What amazes me is that they always seem to go to the spot where you 1st started calling from, even if you switch caller/shooter. This has implications for what you do if you have to switch caller/shooter quickly. So, I am curious as to the experiences of others.... do they go to the spot of the 1st caller, or last? Should be interesting.
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Re: To the 1st or to the last?

Postby ElkNut1 » 03 24, 2013 •  [Post 2]

If in a cold calling setup (elk aren't vocal) with a caller & shooter & both are calling for the first minute then the shooter takes a new position & does no more calling, then oncoming elk will seek out the source of the callers calling.

If you are on vocal elk & setup & you need to re-setup a few times as you get closer then anything can happen. With multiple elk around who knows which elk may already be coming your way as you move your setups closer. To avoid this only setup once when an ambush with no calling isn't possible because of wind or lack of cover. When setting up get as close as you dare without being spotted or smelled to these vocal elk, this way you most likely will not have to re-setup. A big issue hunters fall into is setting up too far away from the elk, they want elk to cover great distances to come to them, make it more convenient & get very close. Make sure to choose the needed sounds wisely when communicating with them under varying situations.

To have effective setups make sure elk are at their "destination" spots. This means in their feeding/watering or bedding areas. If you try to setup up on elk in transition it is tough because they are moving towards their destination. Elk do not care for coming back to where they just were to check out these new elk. It's like banging your head against the wall. (grin) Put the odds in your favor by calling at more strategic times & places.

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Re: To the 1st or to the last?

Postby welka » 03 24, 2013 •  [Post 3]

Paul - good points. I had a pretty good hunch that I would have to clarify the post. To clarify, I was specifically referencing "cold calling" sequences. The specific scenario that has repeated itself multiple times is as follows:

1) Caller/Shooter start at same spot with initial call sequence.
2) Shooter moves to where we "think" the elk may come from (its a good set up with caller hidden well)
3) No response to initial calling
4) After 10-15 mins, caller does a little herd talk
5) Elk responds from totally different direction than "expected" and the original caller now must become shooter based on where elk sounded off from.

No matter how good the 2nd caller sounds (from the different spot), its amazing how the elk stick with that original calling location in search of the calls they heard the first time. Took us a couple of times to figure out that you can't just switch caller/shooter roles in this scenario. The original caller who turns into the shooter MUST move towards the elk that sounded off or he will likely be facing a bull that hangs up at 60-75 yards out.

Wanted to get the discussion going so others could learn and maybe we get a few more ideas! Thanks.
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Re: To the 1st or to the last?

Postby Wapiti » 03 24, 2013 •  [Post 4]

My first elk encounter when i was first starting out elk hunting taught me a valuable lesson. Elk somehow know where you call from !!! That is how they survive in there suroundings ! They don't run by time on a clock and are never in a hurry just because the day light is fading ! Like me and every other hunter out there are !! In fact time is used to there advantage and we are all at the mercy of the elks patience.

I had a herd of elk coming from feed to bed and I was fortunate enough to get ahead and to the left of them as the passed by. I gave out 1 cow call and here came the bull looking for his lost cow. I figured I had time to get ready so i never had an arrow knocked as I let out that cow call ! The elk were at least 80-100 yards away at this time. well I looked up and the bull was 30 yards and closing fast and caught me red handed without an arrow knocked. To this day i still can't believe how fast he covered that distance and he walked to the left of me 5 yards and then circled around in behind where I was kneeling !! So now i'm kneeling in front of him and he is behind me standing there wondering where the cow is !! I could hear him breathing and huffing and glunking and all kinds of other sounds I never heard before.

Finally I tried to knock that stupid arrow as slow and quiet as i could moved. Well that bull must have thought he saw a ghost as he blew out of there and ran out in front of me to 25 yards !! There's me still fumbling to get the arrow knocked to a broadside bull !! well he walked off out of my life and I never even got a shot off !!!!

So ya they come to the first call and every time still make me think of that first day for me and how in the world they do it !! It's a freak of nature for sure !! Trav
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Re: To the 1st or to the last?

Postby Swede » 03 24, 2013 •  [Post 5]

Interesting question and I will wait for Paul or someone else to answer the question. I have noticed that sometimes elk will answer one call (diaphragm) and not another. If you are getting a bull to answer your call, stay with it. If nothing is answering, then changing will sometimes bring on a response. I am thinking your question may be related to the point that elk just do not want to respond to every call. I really do not know why.
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Re: To the 1st or to the last?

Postby welka » 03 24, 2013 •  [Post 6]

Swede,
Question discussion was not about elk not coming to a particular call. It was to generate discussion specific to experiences and our reactions with elk coming to the 1st calling position (regardless of the type of call) in a "cold calling" scenario from a direction you werent' suspecting them from. It can get tricky when you have to switch caller/shooter role (see my clarification above). Thanks.
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Re: To the 1st or to the last?

Postby ElkNut1 » 03 24, 2013 •  [Post 7]

welka, in a nutshell, sounds like a bad setup all the way around. Not enough cover for the elk to come close enough or in bowrange before they can see the area where calling is coming from. It sounds like approaching elk are coming in from the same area you entered from, not good. For there to be a good setup the wind should favor both shooter & caller, if roles reverse the elk is now coming in down wind or will shortly wind you if he hasn't already. Setups are extremely crucial in cold calling setups. Large openings behind the caller or unapproachable obstructions behind caller are needed to force elk to come from sides or from in front. With this type setup ones lessen the problem of being spotted. Too, when you know elk are coming the caller should start leaving the area as he moderately calls even if their roles reverse, this will encourage on coming elk to catch up, after all they made it that far already. (grin)

welka, thanks, you bring up a real life example of encounters as yours that occur every year! Yes, elk have an uncanny ability to pinpoint a sound from a 1/2 mile away. But elk can move in any direction before the real elk get there, remain patient & have that good setup & they will go into search mode, hopefully it will transpire into a shot opportunity.

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Re: To the 1st or to the last?

Postby ElkNut1 » 03 25, 2013 •  [Post 8]

OK, additional thoughts! (grin) All elk know one another by their sounds & can tell from their distinct tones whether it's one or more elk. Things as this must be considered when calling to elk. As you mentioned earlier when elk are coming from a direction you had not planned on during your cold calling setups & caller/shooter roles are reversed, you notice that elk are still hung on the spot the original caller called from. This could be because with your buddy now representing a different elk it does not automatically erase from this approaching elks mind that the original one no longer exists, instead there must be at least two different elk. Too, how much time elapsed from the original callers calling when they saw or heard the approaching elk? Was it within minutes? If so then it would be normal for this elk to still be looking for this elk they heard right where the original caller called from.

I know it's a lot to consider but it is things that actually happen during some encounters. If 10 minutes or more went by then these elk that showed would still scan the area in search mode but after not seeing anything would possibly continue forward. It's also possible that these approaching elk slipped in unnoticed at first & stood there staring the area down looking for these unseen elk, if calls were made by the caller during this time & the real elk are seeing nothing then yes this too would promote a hang up. Just food for thought that we all should consider during blind/cold calling setups.

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Re: To the 1st or to the last?

Postby Swede » 03 25, 2013 •  [Post 9]

Elknut probably answered as well as can be done when he said elk know all of the other elk in their area. I have observed times when I could get no response to my calls, but when I switched to a different diaphragm, I started getting answers. I never really figured out why. I just accept the fact. I suspect that could be what Welka is dealing with when switching callers.
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Re: To the 1st or to the last?

Postby Willie makit » 03 26, 2013 •  [Post 10]

After reading this a couple times I think the root of the topic is to see how many folks get elk to show up at either the location of initial calling or to the location of last sequence of calling from other hunter. The key is the elk are silent so you really don't know which call got their attention.

Forgive me as I'm a noob, but this is very similar to turkey hunting in that they will slip in without a peep, and usually not where you expect them or where the are "supposed" to come from AND go to the guy that sounds like a turkey only if you use your imagination.

I first have to ask why would a hunter/caller separate after making initial calls and no elk reply? unless as Paul stated the wind and terrain limited which direction the silent elk should come from and you know elk are in the area. In my studies I find a lot of variables in the terrain these critters occupy. Oh snap, It's finally dawned on me what Indian summer was telling me about when applying for tags! Sorry, my train of thought derailed....

I can definitely see this happening; make a call sequence,, nothin replies, wait 30 -45 min or so, ease up to next good spot call again, ,,,,, silence, turn around and look back where you were standing to see Waldo the rack monster standing strattled the log you was sitting on just looking around wondering why you ran off??? How many times does this happen?
I don't think welka got what he was looking for on this thread yet, but it is a very good topic and there is a lot of good info here already, hopefully some others will add some experiences to it.
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Re: To the 1st or to the last?

Postby ElkNut1 » 03 27, 2013 •  [Post 11]

Willie, yes I hear ya & believe you are correct! I think what welka says right here is a very good solution to the encounter he shared!

"No matter how good the 2nd caller sounds (from the different spot), its amazing how the elk stick with that original calling location in search of the calls they heard the first time. Took us a couple of times to figure out that you can't just switch caller/shooter roles in this scenario. The original caller who turns into the shooter MUST move towards the elk that sounded off or he will likely be facing a bull that hangs up at 60-75 yards out.

Wanted to get the discussion going so others could learn and maybe we get a few more ideas! Thanks."


I was just adding some room for thought as to some of the reasons why an encounter can go array. When a Topic is posted there are many that will read these topics as "lurkers" so it's good to throw out some info that may help them reason on the matter because there are so many different encounters that can take place in a blind/cold calling setup. I've always been an analyzer of hunting situations, I've never been satisfied with "that's the way it goes sometimes" (grin) I like thinking it out & adjusting to what might I do differently so we get more positive outcomes in like situations.

It's like guys jumping on line after 5 days of hunting elk, they've had many bulls run after they've bugled so these guys say you cannot bugle bulls these days because they just run away from you. This can be the case if you do not know what you are saying or doing. But if these same guys would educate themselves instead of the elk their call ins would increase 10 fold. Instead they'd rather come online & confuse hunters who are not aware that there may be an alternative. I would rather hear about solutions than ones just throwing in the towel. (grin)

Welka, I apologize if this got off subject, you do bring up some great points!

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Re: To the 1st or to the last?

Postby mtnmutt » 03 27, 2013 •  [Post 12]

I am a lurker on this thread. I wanted to express my appreciation to the OP and everyone who has responded.

Last week while reading the Playook on cold calling, this exact question/scenario came up in my mind. The timing of the thread is great.

When I was the caller for someone, I had the elk circling me. In hindsight, I was not setup far enough (<60 yards) from the shooter to make this a good setup for the shooter to take advantage of the circling elk.

As a solo hunter now, I have made the mistake of staying put after my calling sequence. I should have moved in the direction I thought they may come. Unfortunately, I can't hear them call to me because of my hearing loss. However, I think I could get it right at least 50% of the time or is it 25% of the time I would go in the correct direction. :arrow: :?:

Due to my situation, this September, I will be trying more ambush for the elk travel routes from feeding to bedding. However, I will also be doing cold calling after 7am/7:30 when those ambush spots aren't likely to have anymore stragglers.
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Re: To the 1st or to the last?

Postby Willie makit » 03 27, 2013 •  [Post 13]

So for me as a solo hunter, my take for now is I should get situated /setup first, call and sit tight if I know elk are in the area.
Unless the wind and terrain gives me areas that they won't be coming from? Generally speaking this should be much more effective in the thicker terrain where they will have to get close to the exact spot of the call sequence to see the new "elk". In this case would be the first place called from.
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Re: To the 1st or to the last?

Postby welka » 03 29, 2013 •  [Post 14]

Paul,
No problem with it getting off track a little. The intent was to help others so they don't have to learn the hard way like some of us. I knew what you were doing with your points/advice, and, as always, they provide food for thought and food for additional responses. Hope the thread was helpful for a few.
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Re: To the 1st or to the last?

Postby Fullabull » 03 29, 2013 •  [Post 15]

My dad and I separate enough to still see each other and cover multiple directions to better our chances of catching an elk coming in.
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Re: To the 1st or to the last?

Postby ElkNut1 » 03 30, 2013 •  [Post 16]

Fred, yes my son & I have done this many times as well, it gives hunters a bit better odds!

Willie & mtnmutt, check out a new Topic that I will start that will show with photos good areas to setup & bad areas not to setup & why. I think it will help out lots of folks, it's hard to beat a visual aid. (grin) Thanks.

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Re: To the 1st or to the last?

Postby Z Barebow » 03 31, 2013 •  [Post 17]

Now I am going to throw a curveball.

How are do things change if you use a decoy?

FWIW. I try and set up the deke so it can be seen from a likley direction/directions of approach. But it still hasn't worked out as the elk approach from an angle that they still can't see it. One of these days they will see it and commit!
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