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Pre Rut Misinterpreted?

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Pre Rut Misinterpreted?

Postby Trophyhill » 07 21, 2014 •  [Post 1]

When talking about pre rut, what does this really mean? And when does it really happen? The research I've done says the first estrus cycle is around the 3rd week of August. The bulls will shed their velvet around the end of the first week of August and spend the next couple weeks polishing their antlers and getting ready to display dominance and willingness to breed when that first estrus cycle hits. So what are we really talking about when we toss the term pre rut out there? Enlighten me
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Re: Pre Rut Misinterpreted?

Postby Olydog09 » 07 21, 2014 •  [Post 2]

Well scientifically speaking I would have to answer with this:

Pre-Rut in my neck of the woods in the mid 90's would start approximately 5pm on a Friday afternoon after work. First stage was taking down a huge dinner to prepare for proper hydration in case I ran into the possibility that I might have to harvest a cow rather than the target I had been dreaming about all week.

That would be followed with the proper hydration so I could effectively do the dance and last long enough for rigorous activities.

Next up would be the display phase with some antler raking at the local wallow.

If I had done my pre evening scouting effectively I would be in position to use all my calling skills to render my prize by my side.

Then on most excursions would come night fall. (last call). It was at this crucial moment that most hunts I had engaged in I would hear the charging of hooves and crashing of trees as a large herd bull would clamber upon me looking to take back what he thought belonged to him. Some nights we would posture and rake and clash antlers while loudly bugling obscenities at one another. Some nights I would walk away the victor with my spoils. Some nights I would run from the meadow with my tail firmly planted betwixt my haunches and look for a cow to snipe on the way out.

I am sorry but I think I misinterpreted your pre-rut question. :D
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Re: Pre Rut Misinterpreted?

Postby a3dhunter » 07 21, 2014 •  [Post 3]

David, I believe in most situations people are referring to early September when bulls are in the "searching" phase still and have not already attained a harem that they are watching over.
While I have seen herd bulls with cows in August, most of my experience would lead me to believe Sept 4th-11th give or take a day or two seems to be the most consistent time for this type of behavior.
What has your experience been?
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Re: Pre Rut Misinterpreted?

Postby husky390 » 07 21, 2014 •  [Post 4]

Olydog nailed it and thank God I no longer worry about the rut now that Axe is the preferred wallow scent. Too funny.
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Re: Pre Rut Misinterpreted?

Postby twinkieman » 07 21, 2014 •  [Post 5]

Pre-rut to me would be the period prior to any cows in estrus. It would be the time phase when staging and displaying occurs. From what I have learned, older cows in the area come into estrus first, and then the rut truly begins. I do think though that Olydog09's explanation is far more entertaining :lol:
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Re: Pre Rut Misinterpreted?

Postby Olydog09 » 07 21, 2014 •  [Post 6]

I apologize Trophy for my previous jesting. In my thoughts the pre-rut means that the cows have not yet reached estrus which is determined by? Photosynthesis, weather, moon phase, all of the above? I dont know. It seems to vary slightly year to to us humans but who knows if we are properly interpreting the signs. To me Pre-Rut means tough hunting for people waiting for the bulls to bugle. In my experience the bulls are not active buglers at this time. However as I study the teachings of much more experienced elk hunters the pre-rut might just be the best opportunity to kill a quality bull or herd bull. The bulls are seeking but not finding. They are frustrated and agitated as they await the cows to come into estrus. The bulls size each other up and confirm the pecking order. The herd bulls establish their dominance. The hunters who know the area they hunt and know how to hunt it can use this time to klil large bulls, The elk have not been called to as much as they will in the next phase. The best elk hunters can use this period to their advantage and kill nice bulls while others such as myself need the constant bugling to pinpoint and find elk to harvest. Maybe one day I will be knowledgeable enough of my area and the elk behaviors to use the pre-rut to my advantage. But right now I am just not that good. That is MY OPINION on the pre-rut.
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Re: Pre Rut Misinterpreted?

Postby Gselkhunter » 07 22, 2014 •  [Post 7]

a3dhunter wrote:David, I believe in most situations people are referring to early September when bulls are in the "searching" phase still and have not already attained a harem that they are watching over.
While I have seen herd bulls with cows in August, most of my experience would lead me to believe Sept 4th-11th give or take a day or two seems to be the most consistent time for this type of behavior.
What has your experience been?

First question Jason, what makes you think they are searching? Second question why are bulls on the move if they are not searching?
Twinkieman since cows are capable of 4 estrus cycles the first being in late August that would state that pre-rut is before hunting season starts so the same questions to you that I asked Jason.
Olydog09, I remember those days!
The facts are simple, once we hit June 21st days start to shorten causing hormone releases in both bulls and cows[Photoperiodism]. This is the true pre-rut! This sets the stage for all the events that happen in Aug/Sept. Hormone build up takes weeks, they don't just wake up one morning and go, I am going to rut today like Olydog09.[sorry had to!]
The other fact is simple, most hunters don't care why the rut happens, just so long as it does and they get to hunt it.
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Re: Pre Rut Misinterpreted?

Postby tdiesel » 07 22, 2014 •  [Post 8]

I just always took it as pre- peak rut. as you stated some cows come in estrus earlier and some later it is not like every cow elk in the world cycles between dates x to Y. well I guess depending on how big your x and y gap is. Sure the majority come into estrus around the same time but some years I have heard bulls bugling thier heads off 1st of sept no doubt a cow was hot and several bulls wanted in on that. It was not the peak of the rut so I would call it pre rut but thats just short fro being pre, PEAK rut time is all.
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Re: Pre Rut Misinterpreted?

Postby otcWill » 07 22, 2014 •  [Post 9]

Pre-rut: The lil rags have rounded up cows for the big boys who are still loafing around solo waiting for the real thing to happen. Some good bugling can be heard from the dinks on occassion but the future herd bulls are very silent. Don't let this fool you though because they can be called in quite easily during this time with some of Elknut's methods. Try to sound like a pesky, fired up lil bull thrashing his way through the herd and annoying the cows. Mr. Big is getting very curious at this time of year and curiosity kills big bulls. Usually happens from the opener-Sept. 10. After that the lil guys get the boot and the big bulls can be much harder to kill.
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Re: Pre Rut Misinterpreted?

Postby Rizzy » 07 22, 2014 •  [Post 10]

Interesting topic. I have been wondering all year why I had got trail cam photos of the bigger Bulls in early to mid August. Maybe a cow was in heat or going into heat for that first cycle in that area.
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Re: Pre Rut Misinterpreted?

Postby IdahoD » 07 22, 2014 •  [Post 11]

Interesting topic. I've always unscientifically thought that the pre rut is when the bulls are rutting but the cows are not (isn't that usually the case? :) ) So the smaller bulls will get all excited and active but nothing really comes of it. After reading this thread I may start going out earlier in the season for a day trip or two rather than putting all my days in at the end of september.
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Re: Pre Rut Misinterpreted?

Postby elkmtngear » 07 22, 2014 •  [Post 12]

otcWill wrote:Pre-rut: The lil rags have rounded up cows for the big boys who are still loafing around solo waiting for the real thing to happen. Some good bugling can be heard from the dinks on occassion but the future herd bulls are very silent. Don't let this fool you though because they can be called in quite easily during this time with some of Elknut's methods. Try to sound like a pesky, fired up lil bull thrashing his way through the herd and annoying the cows. Mr. Big is getting very curious at this time of year and curiosity kills big bulls. Usually happens from the opener-Sept. 10. After that the lil guys get the boot and the big bulls can be much harder to kill.


This was always my "definition" as well. Maybe not scientifically correct, but it's a great explanation of what's going on in that time period, at least, where I elk hunt. 8-)

I've seen some great bulls wandering around all by themselves during those dates in the past.
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Re: Pre Rut Misinterpreted?

Postby BRazz » 07 22, 2014 •  [Post 13]

elkmtngear wrote:
otcWill wrote:Pre-rut: The lil rags have rounded up cows for the big boys who are still loafing around solo waiting for the real thing to happen. Some good bugling can be heard from the dinks on occassion but the future herd bulls are very silent. Don't let this fool you though because they can be called in quite easily during this time with some of Elknut's methods. Try to sound like a pesky, fired up lil bull thrashing his way through the herd and annoying the cows. Mr. Big is getting very curious at this time of year and curiosity kills big bulls. Usually happens from the opener-Sept. 10. After that the lil guys get the boot and the big bulls can be much harder to kill.


This was always my "definition" as well. Maybe not scientifically correct, but it's a great explanation of what's going on in that time period, at least, where I elk hunt. 8-)

I've seen some great bulls wandering around all by themselves during those dates in the past.


That's what I mean by "pre-rut" also. Not technically correct but... I have seen big bulls solo in the past, but have had minimal success calling them in before bugling picks up. I have a hunch that they are able to smell when the cows are in estrus - maybe my calls are not believable enough on their own.
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Re: Pre Rut Misinterpreted?

Postby ishy » 07 22, 2014 •  [Post 14]

Elk ecology said most cows will come in between the 14 and 24. Younger cows tend to vary more or less, but those are the usual prime time dates according to the book nerds.
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Re: Pre Rut Misinterpreted?

Postby a3dhunter » 07 22, 2014 •  [Post 15]

Gselkhunter wrote:First question Jason, what makes you think they are searching? Second question why are bulls on the move if they are not searching?


1. Visually seeing them search, not wandering and feeding, but seeking out cows. I've seen elk totally ignore calls while transitioning between areas in late August, then a few weeks later they more purpose driven and will answer and come to calls because they are searching.
2. Bulls that I typically see on the move are either heading for water, feed, or bedding areas.


Greg, what makes you think they don't go in search for cows during early September? or, what makes you think they are continually searching for cows?
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Re: Pre Rut Misinterpreted?

Postby Gselkhunter » 07 22, 2014 •  [Post 16]

a3dhunter wrote:
Gselkhunter wrote:First question Jason, what makes you think they are searching? Second question why are bulls on the move if they are not searching?


1. Visually seeing them search, not wandering and feeding, but seeking out cows. I've seen elk totally ignore calls while transitioning between areas in late August, then a few weeks later they more purpose driven and will answer and come to calls because they are searching.
2. Bulls that I typically see on the move are either heading for water, feed, or bedding areas.


Greg, what makes you think they don't go in search for cows during early September? or, what makes you think they are continually searching for cows?


You have answered part of the question yourself[I've seen elk totally ignore calls]. If they were searching would they ignore calls? No absolutely not or your calling isn't getting it done. The answer is so obvious most over look it.
Do you know where your church is? Of course, then why wouldn't elk know where the rutting ground is and just go there? The group is going to show up. First come first serve.
Turkeys do the same and elk have a bigger brain and better language. After all the cows have been bred or the younger bulls are kicked out then the search begins.
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Re: Pre Rut Misinterpreted?

Postby ElkNut1 » 07 23, 2014 •  [Post 17]

Pre-Rut, is a term used for many game animals & all have this time phase as well as Peak-Rut or the later Post-Rut. For elk, the older cows are more likely to come into Estrus/Heat first, these are the cows in the 8-9 year olds & older, these cows will show signs of Estrus last week of Aug. to 1st 10 days of Sept. This is generally still noted as Pre-Rut time since so few cows fall into this category as a whole when compared to the majority of younger cows. Peak-Rut is generally known during the Sept. 15 - 25. This is when the vast majority of cows come into Estrus. A third phase can happen again Oct.15th aprox. & a 4th in early Nov. These last 2 phases are generally the cows who haven't been bred or didn't take in the later cycles so can come back into Estrus aprox 21 days later.

Pick your poison as to what phase excites you the most! (grin)

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Re: Pre Rut Misinterpreted?

Postby buglecrazy » 07 23, 2014 •  [Post 18]

a3dhunter wrote:David, I believe in most situations people are referring to early September when bulls are in the "searching" phase still and have not already attained a harem that they are watching over.
While I have seen herd bulls with cows in August, most of my experience would lead me to believe Sept 4th-11th give or take a day or two seems to be the most consistent time for this type of behavior.
What has your experience been?


For the most part this has been my experience as well. I dont know about the searching but i do know...for the most part... that the herd bulls have not taken over the harems yet. very well said. In my experience the early season (Pre Rut) is a great time to kill a big stud herd bull off a wallow. especially if it is overly hot.
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