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Educated Bulls

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Educated Bulls

Postby Trophyhill » 07 24, 2014 •  [Post 1]

After thinking about the Bad Calling thread I wanted to float this out there for your opinions. Since '08 when I started hunting elk I've heard the term "educated elk" hundreds if not thousands of times. How do these elk get educated? Are elk smart enough to remember previous years close calls and what transpired? Is surviving learned behavior? If elk are capable of learning would they not be considered smart? It is my contention that big old dominant bulls get big for a reason. They are educated and this makes them smarter than people give them credit for and require hunters to hunt much smarter to outsmart educated dominant bulls. And hunting smarter requires smarter tactics, smarter calling and being better at everything you do in the elkwoods. What say you?
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Re: Educated Bulls

Postby LckyTylr » 07 25, 2014 •  [Post 2]

I agree that bulls have the ability to learn and remember. Maybe not with the same cognitive process as you and I, I doubt they are walking through their days in september thinking "Oh Boy, it's September, I'm going to go to the Wallow, get myself good and stinky, and find a sweet cow to push around . . . but wait a minute, I gotta look back up into that tree where I saw bozo drawing down on me last year".

I think they "learn" to be more hesitant in their responses to calling or scenarios that have previously led to encounters with hunters. They aren't going to sneak in on you doing a cold-calling setup on Aug 30 when it's 97 degrees and not a single cow is anywhere near estrous (they probably did that at one point in their younger years when they were curious and luckily they came in down wind of a hunter . . . lesson learned). I think they will that a smart old bull is sometimes not necessarily the one with the most attitude or testosterone . . . a spunky young 5 point that wants to kick everyones a$$ on the mountain and be herd bull at the ripe old age of 4 . . . is likely going to come in to challenge a "bull" trying to steal the few cows that he's wrangled up . . . Whack! I have a lot more experience observing whitetails, it always seemed like the old bucks had very little interest in does until the very peak of the breeding season. They wouldn't waste time chasing does for a month when they weren't actually going to breed them, they wouldn't risk exposing themselves until the time was perfect, even then I'd only see them show up on a trail cam at 2:00 AM. Wise Old Bulls are probably very similar, let that spunky 5 point wrangle up a mess of cows, let him burn all of the energy to keep them running around in a frenzied excited herd of estrogen, when the time is right, he will sneak in, assert his dominance on the rowdy 5 point, do his business, and then retire to solitary winter preparation mode until next year.

Then again . . . I can't speak Elk . . . we need to ask Paul to get inside a mature bulls head and translate just exactly what the heck is going on.
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Re: Educated Bulls

Postby Fridaythe13th » 07 25, 2014 •  [Post 3]

I don't know crap about elk, but whitetail do learn. Last year after slugs and muzzle-loader were done in the month of December. I put my trail cam up in a food plot not 1 single buck during day light hour. January 1st 4 bucks, all different time in the daylight hours. It's like thy knew the season ended on Dec. 31
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Re: Educated Bulls

Postby foxvalley » 07 25, 2014 •  [Post 4]

I'm not sure how much a bull will remember from year to year, but what I do know is that you have a MUCH better chance of killing a bull if you are the first one to encounter that animal that year. For the most part, they have been left alone all summer,and have no clue when hunting season starts........untill...... they start hearing funky bugles and calls, they come close to dying by almost getting shot, they see or smell hunter in the timber,much more vehicle traffic, they smell smoke,etc. All of this or any one of these puts them on high alert,and I believe that now "hunter" is on the back of their mind.I believe any bull that has an encounter with a hunter is much harder to kill now.
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Re: Educated Bulls

Postby Rizzy » 07 25, 2014 •  [Post 5]

Yeah I think they get a great education by wolves and man. It's to the point they permanently change some of their habits and are a little to a lot harder to hunt. They stick closer to and use more rugged terrain, are less vocal, and more nocturnal.

Maybe Paul will tell us about some of the local Bulls that have names ;)
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Re: Educated Bulls

Postby Swede » 07 25, 2014 •  [Post 6]

Five generations of deer have been born in the area where an electric fence once separated the Czech Republic and West Germany. Still, the deer there do not approach the location where the fence once was, even though it is 25 years gone. The Czech Red deer and the Bavarian Red deer do not cross through the forest area, acting as though the fence is still there. I did not provide a link to that information, but more information is available online.
So can elk be educated? Maybe the question needs to be, what are the long term implications of educating the elk?
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Re: Educated Bulls

Postby BrentLaBere » 07 25, 2014 •  [Post 7]

Very interesting information, Swede! I am not sure whether they are educating their young or adapting to survival? Maybe its simply along the lines of death or life, period. Once man pressed on west of the Mississippi, they found grizzly and elk roaming the plains. I am not so sure they were educated when they were eradicated or fled for safer territory. The young following their mothers was passed on when those survived. It seems as though they found a safer place to live that gave them cover, food and water. The basics for survival, right? Will an animal change its traits to survive? They are social herd animals that use vocalizations to communicate. Will their be enough of them to keep quiet, and pass this on to their young to survive and so on? I believe it is simply for that particular elk that has survived and that it has experience. I don't think that trait will be passed on or washed out. Taking a pointing hunting dog and having him live inside most of his life, without ever smelling an upland bird, wont wash out his basic hunting skills. I believe if that dog is put in the field it may find itself pointing out game, out of basic instinct.....not necessarily knowing why, but a trait that has been passed on for many generations.
Just a thought anyway and a very interesting topic, ha, basically my washy thoughts posted out before I take lunch. :roll:
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Re: Educated Bulls

Postby Indian Summer » 07 26, 2014 •  [Post 8]

If you called your dog over to you and when he got there you smacked him in the behind how long would it take before he didn't come anymore? Everyone gives their dogs credit for being smart almost to the point of human.... so what would make anyone think that other animals such as elk don't have the ability to "learn". Maybe learn isn't an accurate word. Conditioned might be better. I have spent lots of time hunting elk that live very close to roads. They are resident and spend most of the year on one side of the highway and winter on the other side. They hear vehicles on a regular basis as well as the occasional 4 wheeler and mountain bikers and hikers pass by all the time. These elk do not act or react the same as the ones I chase in more remote country. They can be vocal for sure but don't respond by coming my way as much when called to in the daytime. Night time is different. They go to their bedding zones earlier spending very little time in the open by the light of day. Ultimately they are harder to kill. Also... the biggest bulls in the area are not found in the same places. It's not like those ones are many miles away.... just one more drainage back seems to be their comfort zone.
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Re: Educated Bulls

Postby brun » 07 26, 2014 •  [Post 9]

Hard for us to know exactly what an elk can learn, but there is no doubt that heavily hunted elk are more wary and difficult to hunt. They get spookier and more reluctant to show themselves during the day or in open areas the more they are pressured. These things seem true in a general way, but then you will see one do something that seems pretty dumb and careless, so who knows?
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Re: Educated Bulls

Postby Indian Summer » 07 27, 2014 •  [Post 10]

brun wrote:These things seem true in a general way, but then you will see one do something that seems pretty dumb and careless, so who knows?


Yep. We call that the rut. When other things become more important than survival. :D
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Re: Educated Bulls

Postby brun » 07 27, 2014 •  [Post 11]

Yes, I always tell people that rutting elk are like a bunch of drunk guys in a bar. Everybody's talking about it, but only a few are getting any, and some one is going to do something stupid.
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