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Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

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Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby BigSkyDreamer » 08 12, 2016 •  [Post 1]

Been hunting over this wallow for 4 years now. First year,first sit and had a calf come in but since then can't seem to make it happen. The trail cam tells me the elk are there but it's like they know when I'm there! Practice good scent control and sit from dusk till dawn but still no luck.
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby lamrith » 08 13, 2016 •  [Post 2]

Check the stand location for backlighting etc. You seem to be throwing your shadow right on the wallow in last shot. Is there decent cover around you so you do not stand out? How high off the ground are you when sitting in stand?

Lots of little things to keep in mind with a stand, location looks good, but you have to have a good tree spot over it for it to work. Sometimes there is just not a suitable tree over a great location. You could always consider a pop up blind, that looks fairly flat an area.

Check out "Tree stand hunting Rocky Mountain Elk" He covers a TON of things to make tree stand hunting work.
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby Swede » 08 13, 2016 •  [Post 3]

Welcome to the forum BigSky. It is good to have you here.
How high have you had your tree stand?
I ran into a similar situation years ago. It about drove me nuts at first. When I was in my stand no elk came around. As soon as I left, they showed up and used the spring and wallow I had spent the last two days at. I was working for the U.S. Forest Service at the time. During the winter I got to thinking about the problem and recalled some of my fire behavior training. I dawned on me that my scent was similar to smoke in the way it was carried by the diurnal (thermal) winds. When the elk would come around the diurnal winds were shifting or coming down and spreading out around the area where I was waiting. The elk could smell me before I saw them.
I was more sure of that evaluation after I had a friend in a tree up the draw above me. He got cold and came down from his stand. About that time I had two elk coming up the draw. The lead was almost in shooting range when it stopped, turned around and left, taking the other with it. There was no panic, they just turned and left. Not long after I talked to my friend and asked when he got down from his stand. He stated the time, which coincided perfectly with the elk incident. I have killed several elk in that location since that time.
I suspect you are not high enough. The trees in your picture are small. Still I would recommend you go up 15-20 feet and set a couple of guy lines to the best tree you have. Make sure they are tight. Then go up to 25 feet in the tree where it is still 6 or 7 inches in the diameter. Hang your stand up there and watch to see what happens. If guy lines are not practical, you can make a 18- 20 foot tall ladder which has a top rung slightly wider that the tree diameter at that height, and lean the ladder into the tree. With the ladder secured into the tree go up and set your stand so your weight will be out over the ladder. After that you might still want to tie off your tree with a guy rope to a tree in back.
I have a similar problem in an area that has just dead Lodgepole pine.
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby Swede » 08 13, 2016 •  [Post 4]

BigSky:
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Here is a picture of a ladder I built. It was not for the exact same purpose, but shows what you can do. This stand is at the location I mentioned in the previous post and is near where my friend waited and got cold. The wallow is in the little meadow just past the tree stand.
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 08 13, 2016 •  [Post 5]

Welcome to the forum BigSkyDreamer. That's a killer looking wallow mister! Just curious what time of the year, and, in what state you're hunting that mudhole?
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby BigSkyDreamer » 08 13, 2016 •  [Post 6]

Thanks for all the replies fellas! The tree stand is about 20 feet off the ground.And while it looks flat it actually side hills a little bit and is on the only semi flat spot on that side of the drainage. I am concealed pretty good while up in the tree. I never thought about the back lighting casting shadows though. The only thing that I can think of that might be off is the distance to the wallow, the base of my tree is only about 10 yards off the wallow. The next suitable tree is a 50-55 yard shot on the uphill side of the wallow and I initially thought that it was too far? This is a wallow in Montana that I hunt in sept. The pic below gives a better view of the terrain. The wallow is up the drainage in the center almost at the top to the right above the rockslidesin the shade spots from the clouds. I appreciate all your suggestions so please keep em coming.
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby Swede » 08 13, 2016 •  [Post 7]

Bigsky, you have me stumped on this. If it is not your scent, then I will have to guess. Unless you are dancing in your stand I doubt a shadow was your trouble. Maybe Lamrith was referring to your silhouette being visible to incoming elk. Sometimes elk can look from above and spot you, but you should see them too. If the elk are not coming around while you are in the stand, and they stay out of sight, the most common answer is that they are catching your scent, unless you are singing in the stand.
Wait, are you bugling or cow calling? That can steer them away too. Elk that might come to a spring/wallow will very often shy away rather than come in on when other elk are there. Also do not place a decoy near a tree stand. If you have a decoy, you should at least see the elk before they are spooked away.
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby Swede » 08 13, 2016 •  [Post 8]

Bigsky: A couple other things crossed my mind to ask you. When you go to your stand are you careful about where your scent is going? Are you minimizing your scent in every way? Be sure the direction you use for accessing your stand puts the least possible scent into the area and be as scent free as you possibly can. I often pick a path that I have prepared before hand, to minimize my scent and sound so I will not be detected.

Here are the four possible alternatives you should consider. Can the elk see, hear or smell you? If you can answer no to these three, then you are dealing with coincidence. It is just bad luck.

Unlike Whitetail hunter, we can hunt the same stand day after day. Also, I do not worry about urine smell. I pee right from my stand. I have had deer come in and eat the bushes I just wet down and have had bears go right under my stand. They don't care about urine, except for one bear I peed on at the base of my ladder. The bear could faintly smell my scent on the ladder, but had walked right over the place I had urinated.
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby BigSkyDreamer » 08 13, 2016 •  [Post 9]

Swede: Thanks for all the insight. Maybe it is my scent.. I have found that thru hunting this area most of my life that the elk tend to bed above and below me. So my only option was to enter from the south (left side of the pic) but that is also a major elk trail into the area as well, I don't walk on the trail I walk about 20-30 yards above it but after reading your replies maybe that is my downfall! There is one other possible way to the stand but that involves side hilling thru the shale rocks below and to the right of my stand but I figured that would be a little noisy lol. I went in over the 4th of july this year to check things out and it is full of sign once again! I set my camera up and will check it out the weekend before the opener when I go back to Montana at the end of the month.
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby lamrith » 08 13, 2016 •  [Post 10]

I was referring to his shadow being right in middle of the wallow. Elk approaching would be looking right at your shadow. Swede is probably more correct about being a scent issue primarily, but be best to not have shadow on your target location either.

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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby Swede » 08 14, 2016 •  [Post 11]

BigSky: I would use elk trails for ingress to my stands and egress from them. Elk are not as sensitive to residual scent as bears are. I have had them come in just minutes after I did and they don't seem to notice. Bears will take note but most still continue on their path. Stay scent free as much as you can. I would still try to go higher. I sometimes go up to 30 feet in a tree, but that is rare. It is hard for me to say going through the shale rock will fix things, but it sounds like making a trail there could help.

Larry: Do you have some experience where your shadow was a problem for elk? This is all new to me. :?:
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby stringunner » 08 14, 2016 •  [Post 12]

I tend to also think it's a scent issue, is it possible to go higher? 20 feet up when in a stand feels pretty high, but I too have found getting another 5-7 feet can change the scent from dropping down vs staying high.

Wondering if you know of a spring in the area as a primary water source for the elk that seem to hang in the area? If there are elk in the area that consistently, perhaps there is a different place to ambush them if for whatever reason this precise spot isn't working?

I have a spot again this year, found it last year, where there were many bulls, no moo cows and little hunting pressure. But the elk were never there when I was last year. I changed trees, went further from the water hole and higher. This year I have also scouted it 4-5 more times and have found several more trails and another spring not far from where I set last year. This year I have cams at both of those springs and am watching to see if the other gets more use. If neither of these springs work this year, I am planning on setting cams on the 3 MAJOR trails the elk use to access the area. It can be puzzling for sure.

If there are elk in the area consistently, and you can't make it happen at that wallow, I would keep trying some thing else till you find a spot that works. For many guys, finding locations with consistent elk can be the difficult part. Seems you have this part figured out. Keep trying and let us know how it progresses. I'm interested to learn from this one.
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby Elkhunttoo » 08 15, 2016 •  [Post 13]

Just my 2 cents but I would guess they are busting you on your way into the stand.
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby lamrith » 08 15, 2016 •  [Post 14]

Swede wrote:BigSky: I would use elk trails for ingress to my stands and egress from them. Elk are not as sensitive to residual scent as bears are. I have had them come in just minutes after I did and they don't seem to notice. Bears will take note but most still continue on their path. Stay scent free as much as you can. I would still try to go higher. I sometimes go up to 30 feet in a tree, but that is rare. It is hard for me to say going through the shale rock will fix things, but it sounds like making a trail there could help.

Larry: Do you have some experience where your shadow was a problem for elk? This is all new to me. :?:

No not with Elk, but I have seen and heard many a tree stand hunter spooking deer and other game due to their shadows. Game is typically looking out and down (why climbing a tree can be such a great way to hunt), in a situation like this as the elk approached (within bow range) the wallow it is looking right at where that shadow is being cast. You go to draw and that shadow suddenly moves and game tends to go :arrow: and quick.

Seeing my shadow right in the middle of the wallow tells me any move I make will have my shadow moving as I reach for my bow, move to draw or draw right sat that critical moment.

Not the issue here I am sure as the elk are not even coming to the wallow at all, but something I would personally avoid if at all possible, and having to move stand for another reason might as well keep it in mind. Maybe move to 9 or 3 from current location and another 10ft up
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby Swede » 08 15, 2016 •  [Post 15]

Thanks Larry for your reply. I started my tree stand hunting by reading whitetail hunters stories and went from there. I have kept some of the things I learned from them, but modified or changed much. I have not seen everything of coarse, but the shadow problem took me by surprise. I have never experienced it as a problem and have never heard another elk hunter say anything about it. I see my shadow across the spring or wallow on occasion. It usually means the sun is low and it is shining on me. I like that on a cold morning, but hate it when it is hot. Usually my shadow is very long, and I have to move quite a bit to have any effect. I sometimes reach my arm out to be certain the shadow is from my blocking the sun. Other than that, it is nothing. Again, thanks for responding.
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby the weasel » 08 15, 2016 •  [Post 16]

my 2 cents....... if it's worth anything, I would look at my sent first, stand location second, and height 3rd. try to stay scent free as possible, (I've finally gotten my father to walk around the truck in the morning/evening... instead of through the exhaust). now for location... from what I see in the pictures that would be too close for my taste. I like 20-35yds. for me. and I always try to put the sun at my back and try to find a good thick 2-3 tree area to be in to help cover me. not sure if this is true or just my thoughts but it's a booger for me (humans) to stare into the direction of the sun and UP also. so (I think) it would be hard for critters also??... so with the sun at my back and some good trees behind/beside me and good camo I feel this is my best layout. and if they come in from above you (elevation) they can pick you out pretty easy, so height is N/A in this scenario.. your just busted! now for #3, I have a 15ft. rope I use to pull up bow/pack. this is my guage, when I'm setting up I go until the string/rope comes off the ground. that's my height. so this is all I got..... hope you can get it figured out. (but I have not harvested one of these big stinky dudes yet so what do I know?!! :D :shock: :cry:
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby Swede » 08 15, 2016 •  [Post 17]

Weasel, 15 feet is ok in some areas and at some times. When the morning and evening down drafts are coming in, I have found you are better off higher up. Your scent does not go straight down. It descends at an angle. That angle varies by different gradients. Sometimes they are fairly steep and sometimes they are just barely descending. The higher up you are, the farther away your scent is when it arrives near ground level. In basins descending scent is a bigger problem than on a hillside. Your scent hits the ground sooner and closer to your stand. I don't mind as much about my scent if it is a long ways off before an critter can smell it. At least it is better than when it is next to the water hole I am watching.
The other point I would like to share with you is that sitting in a stand can and often is an all day affair. I may get in and stay for 5 hours then leave for a couple then return to stay the remainder of the daylight hours. The sun moves constantly. If it is at your back in the morning it is in your face in the evening. I prefer to have the sun in my face in the morning and to avoid the sun in the PM. There are two reasons for that. 1. I like a little sun when it is cold, and like to avoid it when it is hot out. 2. Most (about 75%) of the elk I have killed from a tree stand came in during the evening. As we have been discussing, I agree it is good to have cover around you so you are not lit up by the sun or you throw a shadow. That is just not practical everywhere. In well over 20 years of tree stand hunting, I have never found the perfect tree for a stand. Some are very good, but the Lord has always made sure I had a challenge or two to deal with.
I think BigSky started a great discussion. I would invite more comments and observations or even questions here.
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby BigSkyDreamer » 08 15, 2016 •  [Post 18]

Thank you all for the valuable input you each have given on this subject! My brother tried to get into the stand this past weekend but was cut off by the elk in the wallow! I think I'll just role the dice for the first few days and see how it shakes out. He did find one other active wallow about a mile away on another ridge so at least I have a backup plan I guess. I'm gonna take some pictures on the ground of the stand and I'll post em up for some more feedback. Oh and I did pick up a secret weapon last week....
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby lamrith » 08 15, 2016 •  [Post 19]

BigSkyDreamer wrote:Thank you all for the valuable input you each have given on this subject! My brother tried to get into the stand this past weekend but was cut off by the elk in the wallow! I think I'll just role the dice for the first few days and see how it shakes out. He did find one other active wallow about a mile away on another ridge so at least I have a backup plan I guess. I'm gonna take some pictures on the ground of the stand and I'll post em up for some more feedback. Oh and I did pick up a secret weapon last week....

That's a great choice, I think you will enjoy it and learn quite a bit.
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby Swede » 08 15, 2016 •  [Post 20]

I sure wish I knew who you critters were when I sent you a book. :D BigSky, By saying last week at least you have narrowed it way down for me, and I have mailed only two books to a "Larry" this year. I just hope all of you enjoy the conversations we have here as much as I, and I hope the book help a lot..
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby lamrith » 08 15, 2016 •  [Post 21]

Swede wrote:I sure wish I knew who you critters were when I sent you a book. :D BigSky, By saying last week at least you have narrowed it way down for me, and I have mailed only two books to a "Larry" this year. I just hope all of you enjoy the conversations we have here as much as I, and I hope the book help a lot..


I was the one that guessed the rifle you used in the contest.
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby Swede » 08 15, 2016 •  [Post 22]

Ok, I remember now. I get the connection. Thanks
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby lamrith » 08 16, 2016 •  [Post 23]

Swede wrote:Ok, I remember now. I get the connection. Thanks


No worries, I love the book, getting ready to run thru it again in prep for hunts starting Sept10.
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby BigSkyDreamer » 08 19, 2016 •  [Post 24]

Plan B!!! My brother sent me some pics tonight from wallow #2 . Nice looking bull and a bear to boot! He's going to check my stand camera in the morning but plan #2 is shaping up good and a possible option 3 as well, he found a new trail coming into the area that is definitely being used! Just have to clear a tree to put a stand there too.
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby Swede » 08 20, 2016 •  [Post 25]

BigSky, talk about being a dreamer. Wow! You can dream about a nice bull to shoot and a big bear to pee on.
If you are not familiar with my story about peeing on a bear, I will explain. It is in one of the short stories in the tree stand book.
Good hunting.
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby BigSkyDreamer » 08 20, 2016 •  [Post 26]

Swede, that's classic lol! Just read that story, I think I may have soiled my camo a bit if that happened to me! Hopefully I will have a good success to post up in a couple of weeks. My brother made it into my stand this morning and found very positive results. I'll post them up tonight after I get em.
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby camo_deerslayer » 08 25, 2016 •  [Post 27]

BigSky, we need a pic fix... Post them up!!

Here's a couple from a spot where I intend to hang a stand this weekend...
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby BigSkyDreamer » 08 25, 2016 •  [Post 28]

Here's a few more from the last download on the camera. I'll be in Montana in the morning so the plan is to check it one more time before opening day.
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby BigSkyDreamer » 08 25, 2016 •  [Post 29]

Maybe just a few more before I head to the airport.
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby camo_deerslayer » 08 25, 2016 •  [Post 30]

Nice!! Good luck!!


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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby BigSkyDreamer » 08 31, 2016 •  [Post 31]

Well I've been up here in the big sky country of Montana for 6 days now and I'm quite optimistic it may finally all fall together for me this year. After pouring over this post a bunch of times and reading Swede's book from cover to cover twice I've come to the conclusion that I needed to get my stand even higher up in the tree! I went in yesterday to retrieve my camera and study my setup and found that even though my stand is almost 20 feet up standing under the tree when you step back about 30 yards it's actually only around 15-16 ft once I accounted for the slope of the ridge. The wallow is on a tiny plateau so to speak and when you step off it you walk downhill about 10 yards dropping in elevation the whole time. Luckily my brother had stashed 2 extra lengths of ladder for me so I think I am now truely around 30 ft in the air. Took a little work and left me in there a little longer than I wanted to be but hopefully it pays off. I also chose a different entry and exit path than before. This path will take me in above the bedding areas and a little bit past my stand when I drop down but it puts the wind even more in my favor for coming and going.From over 350 pics that I've got in the last month I think I've pretty much got their pattern down too. They are coming in every other day to the stand starting around 9 am to dark at different times of the day so the plan is to head in at o dark thirty on Saturday and wait to see what happens.Thanks again for all the tips and tricks and thank you Swede for the great read and information you put in that book! Here's a few last picks from my trip yesterday.
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby BrentLaBere » 09 01, 2016 •  [Post 32]

This has been a fun thread to follow. Im rooting for you!
Hoping to see this thread with a bull on the ground when I get back from my hunt. Good luck, BigSkyDreamer
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby stringunner » 09 12, 2016 •  [Post 33]

Well dreamer have you filled your tag over that wallow yet?
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby BigSkyDreamer » 09 17, 2016 •  [Post 34]

Well fellas....long story short is that I sat my stand for 5 solid days and not a single elk came in :shock: . I am convinced that it is just one of those great spots that can't be stand hunted because of the wind. I tried a bunch of different approachs into it and the wind was always unfavorable. I may try a ground blind next year and see if I can get lucky that way. Of the five days I sat from sun up to sun down maybe had 8 good hours without wind. Days 6 and 7 were spent scouting some other areas which turned up some more wallows to mark on the gps and they have a more favorable wind. Thank you all for the tips and tricks and thanks Swede for the great read!!
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Re: Hot Wallow but still can't make it happen....

Postby lamrith » 09 26, 2016 •  [Post 35]

Yeah it can be tough. I just got back from ID and skunked out too. Lot of great terrain and bulls were there but weather really messed things up. A Low pressure coming thru and seeming to shut them up a few days. Then the few chances getting close I had the wind (not thermals but weather driven) going from 10mph in my face to 10mph at my back in seconds every time I was within 40yrds for about a minute and then back in my face the rest of the day. DOH
'15 Elite E35. 30.5", 67#
100Gr. G5 montecs
Sportsman's Vital Impact 300spine

http://www.pelletpeddler.com
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lamrith
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