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Any deer hunter can find elk..... Right?

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Any deer hunter can find elk..... Right?

Postby Indian Summer » 12 21, 2018 •  [Post 1]

This time of year I hear from elk hunters, or people who want to become elk hunters, who think they might be interested in purchasing a DIY hunting plan from me. Sometimes they are experienced hunters who are looking to find a better place to hunt and call home. Sometimes they are first timers interested in getting off to a good start. The person I talk to is the ring leader. We usually have some things in common as he is a guy who likes to plan ahead. He is confident and very motivated. He likes to have his ducks in a row and do anything he can to increase his chances of achieving his goal. We can both talk hunting all day long and I have some really enjoyable conversations with these folks.

The ones with experience are most commonly hunters who have 3-4 years under their belt and have decided they they had really do love elk hunting but their efforts haven’t been rewarded with freezers full of elk meat. Instead they and their partners have a collection of unpunched elk tags.

I’ve also spoken to elk nuts in their 60s with over 30 years experience who have eaten more than their share of elk meat. They have decided to relocate because either they can’t draw licenses every year in their old spot or more commonly the place has just become to crowded and the elk are pressured too much for their liking.

The hunters with experience don’t ask nearly as many questions. Their questions are a little more educated. I think they get a feel for how much I know about my areas and also for the fact that I’m more than willing to spend plenty of time talking to them to make sure they are more than ready to put their hunt plan to good use. They don’t blink an eye at the cost of my plans. They realize the value of one and to them it’s a solid long term investment and not an expense for this year’s hunt.

The inexperienced elk chasers are different. To put it bluntly they don’t know enough to know how little they know. The internet has enough to offer that they think they can at least sway the odds in their direction through online scouting. The contact person is usually ready to move forward but they often call me back and say help me out man! One of my partners just doesn’t get it. What can you tell me to help me convince him to think like I like I do? All he keeps saying is “Dude we can find deer no problem so I’m sure we can find a few elk.” In other words any deer hunter can find elk right?

Apparently the answer to that is no. Because a year later I see familiar email addresses in my inbox. I know before I read them what it’s going to say. It’s from the ring leader. The bottom line is he spent the entire second half of his dream hunt telling his partner “I told you so!” Most of the time they killed nothing. Lots of times they saw nothing. Often times one of their crew said he’s never hunting elk again after wasting a couple thousand dollars to go on daily death marches all for nothing. But my job and the ring leaders job is much easier at that point. He might ask one or two questions and he wants me to email contracts so he can kill one of “those damn things!”

I’m not saying new elk can’t figure out how to kill elk on their own. But first they need to find a place to do it. A place with elk, not to much competition, and room to roam. Those guys with 30 years experience said to me “We won’t live long enough to find and figure out a new spot” They were extremely happy to kill 6 point bulls on their first hunt in Wyoming. The very next year they bought a Montana plan without asking a single question. If hunters don’t mind a few years of trial and error and empty coolers to find a place to call home that’s fine. Nothing wrong with that I suppose. But if they want to speed up their learning curve, drive out and pitch a tent and get right down to business then a hunt plan is the ticket.

There’s a little over a month left until the Wyoming app deadline. More for Montana but it’s never too soon to prepare. If you aren’t sure what you are going to do next year or maybe know you don’t want a repeat of last year give me a shout. Fire away with any questions you might have. Together we can set you up with a plan to have your picture in the meat pole thread by the end of 2019. Good luck!
Joe Ferraro
Headin West Hunt Consulting
http://www.headinwest.net
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Re: Any deer hunter can find elk..... Right?

Postby Swede » 12 21, 2018 •  [Post 2]

I understand what Joe is saying in his infomercial. It is solid advise. If I was interested in Montana or Wyoming, I would call him. As long as I have hunted elk, I am sure I could figure out where I could hunt, but why would I? Why spend the time and money needed to effectively locate and scout a new area?
My friends and I hunted a new area in Oregon this past season, but we went there and scouted several times before we were ready to hunt. Those scouting trips cost over $400 each for me alone, and I still had to fine tune things after the hunt started. Those whom I hunted with had similar expenses. We were still adjusting days into the hunt. We had all month to hunt, so we could take the time and scout during the season. We still have much to learn about the area. We will do it on our own. We love the time out and have the time available. Also Joe's services do not cover Oregon yet.
I feel safe in saying that using Joe's services is a cheaper and quicker way into good elk hunting than total DIY by a whole lot. Sure a good deer hunter has basic hunting skills that will transfer to elk hunting. Just remember 90% of the elk are killed by the same 10% of the hunters year after year. These are generally seasoned elk hunters. Luck smiles on a few of the other 90%.
You can improve your likelihood of being successful by reading what different hunters have to say right here on W.T., but it sure helps to be in the right area at the time of your hunt.
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Re: Any deer hunter can find elk..... Right?

Postby Indian Summer » 12 21, 2018 •  [Post 3]

I think a big... make that huge difference in deer and elk is the amount of area that doesn’t contain game. Back east and most of the midwest every square mile has at least some deer in it. I’ve been there myself when you hike 4-5 miles then loop back around and don’t see a single animal or even sign of one then get up on a vantage point and look back thinking I cannot believe there’s not a dang elk in there! Three days of that is sure to leave a new elk hunter scratching his head.

Something you said stands out to me... that buying a plan is cheaper than figuring out an area on your own. The first thing I think a hunter has to consider is are they even in an area worth figuring out. Is there anything there to figure out! That in itself is part of the value if my services. As far as cost goes I’ll quote a client from a phone call this past week... one of his partners was on the fence about buying a plan. He said his buddy said “I’m not sure I can afford it” He said the reality is the guy has the money he’s just to cheap to want to spend his money. So he said to him “I don’t think we can afford NOT to have a plan”

I know myself I’m not a happy camper coming home with an unpunched tag and empty coolers. You sit and think about all the time and money you invest in your hunt. On the other hand when I know the coolers are stuffed with meat and dry ice and I can see a set of antlers in the rear view mirror I don’t spend one second thinking about that thousand dollar license or the week of pay that I lost. My thoughts are more like Mission accomplished and I can’t wait to get back and do it again!
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Re: Any deer hunter can find elk..... Right?

Postby Swede » 12 21, 2018 •  [Post 4]

On a similar matter; I hunted with a guy in the early 1970s. He had a very cheap rifle scope. It fogged over the first day out. One morning we had elk right in front of us and he did not shoot. I got one later that afternoon. In the evening I asked why he did not take the open shot that he was in a position to make. He showed me his scope and said he could not see a thing. I had a spare rifle in camp. He could have used it! The guy was not poor. He was just too cheap to buy a reliable 4X scope and too proud to ask to use mine. Another false savings. We shared one elk.
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Re: Any deer hunter can find elk..... Right?

Postby Indian Summer » 12 21, 2018 •  [Post 5]

I have always said that even the best rifle is only as good as the scope on top.

You know what I do Swede. I don’t care whether or not a hunter buys a plan from me. When I started the business I had one goal. The cost of elk licenses is always going up and I hoped to pay for my tag every year and maybe some gas money to get me to the mountains. I have always been about quality and definitely NOT quantity. But when I get calls from guys who think “How much could a couple maps be worth” I have to shake my head. They’ll spend $1000 on Sitka clothes and way more on a bow. But the thing they spend the least on is a plan to put all of the other investments to good use. Just like a rifle with a cheap scope what good is a football team without a plan? The coaches with the best playbook is the one who wins. Spending time watching other games won’t win Super Bowls and neither will hunting elk online. Both are great places to start.

Most years I do the same thing as guys looking for their honey hole. I go online and eye up new spots. They are in the vicinity of my known spots so I know the elk populations are good. I grill Google Earth and eventually order maps then stare at those until I’m cross eyed. I put together a very solid hunt plan and I hunt the place for a week before hunting my regular spot. At least half the time I strike out. Sometimes it’s really bad and I don’t even see an elk. It has become very clear that elk do not use Google Earth to decide where to hang out! Some of these places have incredible habitat. But they just aren’t there. When I do that I think about the thousands of hunters who bank their entire hunt on a plan in an area like that. I honestly feel bad. Elkless elk hunts are just plain depressing. People who have never hunted the beasts can’t imagine covering miles every day and not seeing one. It’s the guys with some experience who know the reality of it.

Remember when there was no such thing as the internet Swede! Outdoor Life and Field and Stream magazines. Reading stories from guys like Jim Zumbo was great but we didn’t really learn anything. It just inspired me and made me think if they can do it I can do it. No doubt the internet is a big help with many things in life. But in a way it’s like the cheap fogged up scope that your buddy tried to see elk through. He travelled all that way to see nothing. Sad really. But it’s hard to feel sorry for someone when they have the tools available to get the job done and don’t care or think it’s important enough to use that tool.
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Re: Any deer hunter can find elk..... Right?

Postby Swede » 12 21, 2018 •  [Post 6]

A while back someone (I think it was you, but it does not matter) argued that basically G.E. was a waste of time. Maybe I am misinterpreting a little what was written, but I am seeing the point better. If that is all a new hunter has going for them and that is what they are basing their hunt on, it is a foolish and expensive gamble. Case in point, look at the public land in the Cascade Mountains in Oregon. You will see what to the uneducated eye looks like perfectly fine elk country. You would also be looking at a great place to see millions of acres of beautiful scenery and a wonderful place to waste time hunting. There is a 3%-4% success rate there, and I suspect most of that success is from adjacent private land.

An interesting thing to note here is that sometimes we write things that the reader will misunderstand. The difference is perspective and experience. It is not that one has had more experience or even better experience; just different experiences. Maybe the next time I chew on I.S. or Elknut I will add a smiley face. grin. Just don't bet on it.
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Re: Any deer hunter can find elk..... Right?

Postby Indian Summer » 12 21, 2018 •  [Post 7]

I gain information anywhere I can. I read articles when I already know 99% of what is written. I’m still interested in the other 1%. Always learning! I love learning from the fresh and different perspectives of new hunters too. Any good teacher occasionally learns from the questions and comments of students. Hell Swede I even read your book! Grin :D

I use Google Earth all the time for a couple reasons. First topo maps aren’t 3D... although I see them in 3D from using contour lines so much. Also because GE shows cover and vegetation. It has a purpose for sure. But that purpose is not finding elk or good places to hunt them. I guess you could say it’s for improving my hunting in places I already know have elk to hunt. If I’m looking for elk I’d rather do it on a topo map.
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Re: Any deer hunter can find elk..... Right?

Postby southernelk » 12 21, 2018 •  [Post 8]

joe I have not used your service, but when we finally go to Wyoming to hunt, you better believe I will. I am an eastern deer hunter, in good shape, and it took me probably 3 trips to montana before I was able to come up with a decent plan and began to kill elk. I think back on how much time and money I spent doing that and it makes me cringe. yes, we have a lot of good memories of hiking through those mountains trying to figure it out. but, we could have had some good memories and elk in the freezer a few years earlier with just a little initial investment. oh well, we live and learn. I do enjoy the challenge of scouting and finding elk, but for an out of stater that can be very difficult to pull off in one trip unless you can mix in a scouting trip. I guess as we get older we learn that time is precious so we need to make the best of it.
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Re: Any deer hunter can find elk..... Right?

Postby Swede » 12 21, 2018 •  [Post 9]

Indian Summer wrote: Hell Swede I even read your book! Grin


Now I.S. has gone to bragging that he can read a complex and sophisticated book. Where will it all end?
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Re: Any deer hunter can find elk..... Right?

Postby saddlesore » 12 21, 2018 •  [Post 10]

If a new elk hunter spends 2-3 years elk hunting before he fills his tag and considers those years wasted he probably should be doing something else. First every minute elk hunting is a treasure.Second, learning by experience is a much better teacher than having another point the way. I go to kill elk and give it al lI can,but when I do not fill my tag,I don't start pounding the steering wheel on the way home cussing about it

Hunting in Colorado,I get to see a lot of experienced and non-experienced hunters every year.Probably more so than someone hunting WY,MT or ID. In those hunters, I see a lot of whitetail hunters from WI, MN,PA, and such. Most carrying those Remington 7400 or 7600 's in .06 or 3 Whelen. I see them kill their share of the15-20% of elk kills that the CPW likes to boast about their overall success rate.

The ones I see are dedicated and hard hunting guys.They might walk around a few days getting sunburned on the back of their mouth from staring at the wonder of it all with their mouth open. I hear a lot more of "What Beautiful Country it is" instead of "where the hell are all the darn elk".

I give them advice as to their first elk hunt, they should hire an outfitter,but from some of their rigs,I know they could not afford it.So I help them if I can. Putting an X on a map does not necessarily mean those hunters can see an elk right there,even if there are some.I know because I have put more than a few X's on maps for people and they got tag soup.
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Re: Any deer hunter can find elk..... Right?

Postby Indian Summer » 12 21, 2018 •  [Post 11]

I wouldn’t say any time spent elk hunting is wasted time. At the very least you are learning what doesn’t work. But it sure is easier to learn about elk hunting if there are elk to hunt. Elk that go about business as usual instead of being nocturnal.

As far as pounding the steering wheel because you don’t kill elk.... that’s never the case. A bad day of elk hunting is better than a good day at work. But given the choice I definitely prefer to kill them instead of spending the winter living off of beef that someone else killed for me.
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Re: Any deer hunter can find elk..... Right?

Postby Swede » 12 21, 2018 •  [Post 12]

Having an X on a map that was placed there by a knowledgeable person is going to get you into the right area. It beats wandering around for a season, or multiple seasons wondering why you are not seeing elk.
I have found placing an X on a map for someone is often a waste of time. Hunters won't go there and check it out. People I know, and even some I worked with would ask me for a good place to hunt. I would put an X on their map for them. Not one I followed up on hunted where I suggested. They made claims that I had some great secret honey hole where I got my elk. Likely they thought I was sending them off to a worthless location. That was far from the truth. I had, and have no easy kill location. I knew places that a patient hunter was likely to get an elk if they put in some time. I couldn't hunt them all, and some were too far from where I have camped.
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Re: Any deer hunter can find elk..... Right?

Postby Indian Summer » 12 22, 2018 •  [Post 13]

My first diy hunt I knew a guy who lived in Noxon Montana. He did not hunt at all. He spent all of his time and money sitting in bars. But he did some hiking and I told him to try to find some elk and come up with a plan for me. One day perched on his stand (barstool) he was talking to an old timer who used to hunt elk. The guy drew a little map on a napkin. He put an X on it and drew a little stick figure of a bull. I hiked 12 miles of gated switchback road and pitched a small tent. The first morning I walked in country I had never laid eyes on and killed my first bull EXACTLY where he marked the x.

On the other side of the coin I’ve sold hunt plans to 1 or 2 guys who called me when they got home and said they had an ok hunt but didn’t kill anything. I asked did you go to this spot or that spot. I was shocked when they said no I was headed that way but it looked good over this way. They didn’t use their plan! Wow. One guy said well I was in town getting some stuff and a local told me that spot was tough hunting and told me about another place so I went there. What!!! :o I asked if it ever occurred to him that a local guy might have got a laugh out of sending a dude from California to a worthless dead zone. That never dawned on him. I can’t believe that man!

One time a client called and said how the heck did you know there’d be a bull standing by that tre??? I said well I didn’t but it was definitely a good spot worth mentioning where I’ve seen a few before. How did you know I could put a bull in front of you like that? He laughed and said well I didn’t but it sounded like you’ve seen a few. :lol:
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Re: Any deer hunter can find elk..... Right?

Postby Lefty » 12 22, 2018 •  [Post 14]

saddlesore wrote:If a new elk hunter spends 2-3 years elk hunting before he fills his tag and considers those years wasted he probably should be doing something else. First every minute elk hunting is a treasure.Second, learning by experience is a much better teacher than having another point the way. I go to kill elk and give it al lI can,but when I do not fill my tag,I don't start pounding the steering wheel on the way home cussing about,,,,,,,,,

The ones I see are dedicated and hard hunting guys.They might walk around a few days getting sunburned on the back of their mouth from staring at the wonder of it all with their mouth open. I hear a lot more of "What Beautiful Country it is" instead of "where the hell are all the darn elk".,,,,,,,,.

Excellent perspective!!!

The my outdoors mentality has meant different

I things at different times of my life
When young it being with my dad and brothers
Then for a long time it was more about stacking game, a bit more of an ego thing. Then the ego thing was more about getting my daughters or others their first , most best whatever,
Then a chance just to be out and about on my own
Do I still like to bring home meat horns feathers and fins, you bet
But it’s more important to be there
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