New elk rifle

[Roosiebull]

Been talking about it for quite some time, finally took initiative, put in some real effort and made some huge improvements.

Went to the bow shop to shoot some 2019 compounds, got side tracked and shot 4 recurves, and learned I can handle enough draw weight to upgrade my bow...

The type of bow I wanted was 7-8 months out on custom, but as luck would have it, they had a perfect spec'ed bow in stock!

I decided to go for it, and will be selling my compound soon, and everything associated with it.

This will be my elk rifle for 19', 64" Blacktail elite VL, 54lbs@28"

[Roosiebull]

Loving the recurve! I have got obsessed shooting

[Roosiebull]

I had a couple goals I wanted to reach with my compound, accomplished those, so I figured if I didn't switch, I may just keep making excuses, and keep shooting compounds.

I have really fell in love with shooting, never have liked shooting anything like I do a trad bow... I'm looking forward to elk season, goals but no expectations

[Swede]

Nice bow. It looks great on that elk rack. I am sure the elk hope it stays on the wall a lot.

[WapitiTalk1]

Man Roosie, that is a beautiful bow! I have no doubt you'll keep it gainfully employed .

[Roosiebull]

I will be pretty surprised if it gets elk blood on it this year, but it will not be for lack of effort... it's not like hunting them with a compound is too easy... I'm still in disbelief every time I have walked up to a dead elk.

I'm not sure why I have desire to switch, but I have, so I am. I love the simplicity, and miss hunting with no expectations, I think that is the draw (some pun intended)

I'm excited, I am really considering going all in this year, and only using the Blacktail except for calling lions.

We'll see where my shooting is at around spring and go from there

[Swede]

I will be surprised if you don't get your bull in 2019. You have an uncanny way of being very hard on the elk population.

[Elkduds]

Wonderful. Long live stickbows and instinctive shooting.

[ElkNut1]

Awesome! You'll love trad, you'll find you make a connection or bond with the total package. Making arrows & the such! There seems to be a style of tinkering that is never ending. It's truly a whole different world & requires serious dedication which leads to shooting your bow on a daily basis. There's a lot of enjoyment to be had, almost a mystical romance that's tough to describe, you have to live it.

Just don't go head over heels to quickly & sell your other gear, you may end up like myself & want to return to the compound. I loved shooting trad at first & honestly felt I'd never go back but things do change. Live for the present but do not forget about the past it's what got you where you are now! Good luck & enjoy the ride!

ElkNut/Paul

[Roosiebull]

For now, the compound is getting rehoused, I have really been wanting to switch, and have been shooting a recurve for about 3 years, I just recently took initiative, built my form, started shooting way better (Robin hooded my first 2 arrows ever) and I have always said, when I get better, and build up in draw weight, I was buying a blacktail, that was the idea behind that purchase.

I very much realize the dedication I need, which means shooting my sammick after work in my headlights sometimes, or whatever.

I may go back at some point, not ruling it out, but not before killing a bull with the recurve.

Since I switched gears, my hoyt has collected dust, so I'm moving it out before it loses more value (an rx-1) I can always buy another if I want, but right now I'm focused on shooting the recurve.

I have always had a "go all in" attitude, so this phase isn't anything new to me.

It's a desire I have had for several years, finally took initiative to take the next step.

I have gotten more bored with compounds the past few years, switching bows every year, and shooting to stay sharp, not because I really want to shoot my bow.

The recurve has brought the fun back to shooting and then some, now I want to shoot constantly. You make some valid points, but I'm just not going to be shooting my compound, and I don't like having stuff that sits, would rather move that money to something currently useful.... and I have a pile of stuff to still buy, haha.

We'll see how my attitude is after a season hunting with it, if I don't kill an elk one year, that's totally fine

[ElkNut1]

You have a great attitude & desire, with that you've already won the psychological battle! (grin) You'll do great & have fun doing it!

My Son, Clayton & I have taken 14 bulls with longbows & recurves, we've used woodies, aluminum & carbons all with feathers. We've shot arrows from 475 grains to 600 grains, some with heavier FOC than others & many different broadheads. Not experts but know enough to be dangerous! (grin) I'd be more than happy to help out if I could if you have any questions during your adventure. Feel free to ask & good luck sir!

ElkNut/Paul

[Roosiebull]

I'm sure I'll have some questions!

I'm thinking if axis 340 shafts, stacking brass inserts, and footed, trying to get to right at 600 grains with 150gr heads is the goal, I know it's impossible to tell, but cut at 29" I should be in the ballpark on spine? I can't imagine needing 300 spine, but I'll be happy with anything over 550gr.

I like 150gr heads because it gives me a wide variety of heads, it's limiting if you bump up to 200gr heads.

I'm liking the idea of 150gr original German kinetic xl's, which are 2 blade heads, with 1.5" cut, super good edge retention.... I do realize it would be asking a lot to build an arrow and have it perfect the first try.

The shelf on blacktail bows are cut past center, so a 5mm axis shaft should be pretty forgiving to tune in that bow.

In the last 3 months I have probably done 2 yrs worth of compound shooting, and I shoot all year.

My wife had surgery early November, so I was home taking care of her, couldn't really leave the house, so I shot, I was probably averaging about 3 to 400 arrows a day, and was able to really progress and build strength, I was surprised how little weight I could handle (actually handle with good form) after so many years of shooting 70lb compounds... 40lbs was hard to handle for a while, once I learned good technique, my draw strength went up fast, I thought it was going to take awhile to build draw weight, but much of it is technique.

I have never enjoyed shooting anything like I do recurves. I brought my sammick to work so I can keep shooting, switched to a tab and a higher anchor recently.

I'm too scared to leave my blacktail in my pickup all day unattended while I'm on the ocean, but the sammick keeps me shooting anyhow.

Really enjoying the process, and am planning on another set of limbs, and likely a long bow in the near future.

Love shooting trad bows!

[ElkNut1]

It's funny how so many of us go through similar phases! I can recall wanting & did foot shafts on my aluminum arrows, I killed a bull with one then shed the thought of why I did it??? (grin) Heck, I never had issues with my arrows through a compound with 70#-80# of KE but for some reason I felt I needed to foot shafts with less that 40# of KE out of a 190 fps longbow, ha ha, go figure! We all go through it bud!

I pulled 65#-66# at 27" on my longbow & shot 500 grain .500 spine arrows, anything else was just too stiff! I would be surprised if you need anything over .400 spine at 54#. The arrows I settled on were 500 grains, they had roughly 200 grains up front on beman classics .500 spine, I had a couple pass throughs with 3-bladed heads. I also killed a bull with the german kinetics 150 grain 2-blade, man what a tough head just a scant blood trail so didn't use them again.

You can easily build a 500 to 525 grain arrow with 200 to 250 grain head/insert weight that would blow away a 600 grain arrow especially at 54#-- You don't pull enough weight to have a 600 grain arrow out do a slightly lighter setup & increase speed & penetration! It's all about balance!

I've tested countless arrow setups & weights, your setup would be dynamite at the 500 - 525 grain weight class. You would easily have pass through's on broadside shots, not as easy at 600 grains because your limbs do not pack enough energy which equates into a decent speed to cast that heavier arrow, testing would prove this to you as it did myself! You have lots of time to check this out before elk season!

Your heavier arrows will carry the needed weight & momentum after 45-50 yards, before that in the point plank to 30 yards the 600 grain would have way less penetration value that a lighter setup.

ElkNut/Paul

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

Welcome to the dark side!!!

I'm too tired tonight to look at specs, but I can try to offer tuning help later if you still need it. Looking forward to seeing you down a bull with that beauty of a bow!

[Roosiebull]

Yeah, I would be very interested hearing some specs.

[Roosiebull]

It's funny how so many of us go through similar phases! I can recall wanting & did foot shafts on my aluminum arrows, I killed a bull with one then shed the thought of why I did it??? (grin) Heck, I never had issues with my arrows through a compound with 70#-80# of KE but for some reason I felt I needed to foot shafts with less that 40# of KE out of a 190 fps longbow, ha ha, go figure! We all go through it bud!

I pulled 65#-66# at 27" on my longbow & shot 500 grain .500 spine arrows, anything else was just too stiff! I would be surprised if you need anything over .400 spine at 54#. The arrows I settled on were 500 grains, they had roughly 200 grains up front on beman classics .500 spine, I had a couple pass throughs with 3-bladed heads. I also killed a bull with the german kinetics 150 grain 2-blade, man what a tough head just a scant blood trail so didn't use them again.

You can easily build a 500 to 525 grain arrow with 200 to 250 grain head/insert weight that would blow away a 600 grain arrow especially at 54#-- You don't pull enough weight to have a 600 grain arrow out do a slightly lighter setup & increase speed & penetration! It's all about balance!

I've tested countless arrow setups & weights, your setup would be dynamite at the 500 - 525 grain weight class. You would easily have pass through's on broadside shots, not as easy at 600 grains because your limbs do not pack enough energy which equates into a decent speed to cast that heavier arrow, testing would prove this to you as it did myself! You have lots of time to check this out before elk season!

Your heavier arrows will carry the needed weight & momentum after 45-50 yards, before that in the point plank to 30 yards the 600 grain would have way less penetration value that a lighter setup.

ElkNut/Paul

Blacktail owners unanimously recommended over 10gpp for these bows, Norm has designed them to shoot well with heavy arrows, and I am going to stay over 550, I'm shooting some lighter arrows now, and they are 400's, full length and show under spined with 150gr heads, shoot well with 100's, so adding weight I will be in the 340 spine, and some blacktail owners claim I may be under spined with them even.


I have some 300 spine at home, so I can hack the fletchings off and see how the bare shafts fly, which would be too easy, but I have them, so why not? I'm footing them because I will be doing a bunch of stump shooting, and sage rat shooting over east, and that will trash arrows (messed one up today just shooting through a target into gravel a few times) those blocks don't hold up, under a year old and it's shot out.

There is no downside to making your arrow stronger, especially what I will be doing with them.

I'm surprised you shot 500 spine, I have some axis traditional arrows in 500 spine that are weak with 150gr heads out of my 45# sammick, and that thing is a slug compared to the blacktail, even with much lighter arrows.

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

I'm surprised you shot 500 spine, I have some axis traditional arrows in 500 spine that are weak with 150gr heads out of my 45# sammick, and that thing is a slug compared to the blacktail, even with much lighter arrows.

Different folks have different form, and finger shooting can really widen the spine range that a certain draw weight will shoot well. It might be surprising, but it's not unheard of to have that kind of variance! In Paul's case he's drawing 27" and probably shooting some very short arrows.

What's your true draw length? Is it actually 28"?

[Roosiebull]

Yeah, 28"

[ElkNut1]

I certainly understand footing your arrows, I did & I doubt I could have been talked out of it much like yourself! (grin) After a year of it I realized there was no real benefit on Elk & Deer critters or less.

It sounds like you are shooting Full Length arrows, why would you do that, I bet you don't with your compound? I cut mine down to stiffen spine same as a compound & it now accept a much heavier FOC. You can do the same. I sure don't want 4"-6" sticking out past the riser, no need at all. I'd suggest shortening your arrows & tune them, you'll do so by playing with length & head weight mostly, it's pretty easy to tell if your arrows are porpoising to the target or not, this will allow you to easily shoot .400 spine.

For ultimate penetration I'd make sure I was shooting a minimum 190 grains upfront. If you have a way to test arrows I would do it so you know what arrow does what. 3/4" plywood works great, I like screwing two of them together, you will see your performance from that bow & make solid decisions with the facts!

For instance, if you take a tuned 500 grain arrow & a tuned 550+ grain arrow & shoot them at 20 to 25 yards with 200 grains upfront on both you'll notice the 500 grain arrow will surpass in penetration & be faster. Less drop without sacrificing penetration is what us trad guys are looking for! The reason you are considering a 600 grain arrow is you feel it will out penetrate an arrow 75 grains to 100 grains lighter, this isn't so with the proper FOC when shooting a 54# recurve. Your limbs only pack so much energy at your poundage drawn. Your bow has a Peak performance, too light & penetration is sacrificed, too heavy & the same applies. Don't fall into the trap that heavier will always out perform a lesser weight arrow, not true unless the poundage or draw length is increased to suit the heavier projectile.

Trumkin, is correct, I cut the arrows down to fit my needs as I would with any bow & tune from there!

ElkNut/Paul

[Roosiebull]

I will start at full length most likely, and cut to tune, the plan is 29-29.5" to allow room for a footer. If I end up not shooting an axis, I may not foot them, but arrows with HIT inserts get banged up and split shooting hard stuff, it's a necessity for my needs if shooting hit inserts, I have split a couple shooting sage rats, and one yesterday just going through the target.

Have lots of time to play with arrows

[Old school]

Beautiful bow - and nice jacket as well we have similar tastes in both. I shoot a recurve, longbow and compound and enjoy them all. I shoot better with carbon arrows but all my trad kills have been with traditional wood arrows and Zwickey glue on broadheads. Wood arrows put the arc in archery.

-Mitch

[Roosiebull]

Beautiful bow - and nice jacket as well we have similar tastes in both. I shoot a recurve, longbow and compound and enjoy them all. I shoot better with carbon arrows but all my trad kills have been with traditional wood arrows and Zwickey glue on broadheads. Wood arrows put the arc in archery.

-Mitch

Very cool! I am going to play with some wood arrows as well, there is a really cool and talented man in Oregon that builds some beautiful arrows, and even has a couple Blacktails in the similar specs, so he will be able to build me some good shooting arrows, I may even go that route for hunting.

These bows are cut past center too, so it sounds like they are somewhat forgiving to tune

[ElkNut1]

All sounds great! Please keep us posted on your adventure! Sounds like you're really into it, that's awesome!

p.s. I don't shoot trad much these days but have a really nice Sapphire Hawk Longbow, it's an R/D Takedown at 61" -- it's 59# at 27" -- I had it made for me & Ernie in MT did an awesome job on it. If you get to the point you want to try a Longbow let me know & I'll send out to you to test drive.

ElkNut/Paul

[Roosiebull]

Thanks Paul!

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

Alright, here's my tuning strategy in a nutshell. I'm going to strongly recommend being open to heavier broadheads/more point weight. Arrows just tend to fly better and correct more quickly with higher F.O.C. (at least for me). It is also a lot easier to tune if you aren't hell bent on a specific broadhead.

1. Pick your desired arrow length (I draw 33" so I am severely hindered in my own arrow selection) Lets say 29"-30".

2. start with 2 arrows (one fletched, one bareshaft) cut to 30" in a spine that you think will be just stiff enough, or a little too stiff. For your 54 lbs @ 28 I'd recommend trying .400 spine first, or maybe .340

3. add the heaviest brass insert they make for your arrow, in this case, probably the 75 grain HIT. So now you have two arrows with no tips, but matching insert weights.

4. order a field tip test pack, with pairs of field points weighing from 100-250 grains. Start right at your 150 grain field tips and start bareshaft tuning. Basically just bounce up/down in point weight until the arrows are impacting together at all reasonable ranges. You can read up on the finer points of reading a bareshaft elsewhere, lol.

5. After that you can start fine tuning with your best flying point weight. You will need to tweak out any nock left/right and up/down issues by adjusting brace height, raising/lowering nocking point, and other little tweaks. You can stiffen an arrow that's slightly weak by building out the side plate to adjust centershot. You can also weaken an arrow some by raising the brace height.

If you aren't satisfied with your results at that point, it's time to consider a new arrow, or trimming your existing one to make it stiffer.

FWIW, my arrows are 34" .260 spine Axis, with 75 grain HIT inserts and 300 grain tips. I shoot a 64" Toelke SS that is 64 lbs @ 33". Finding that combo was a real devil. My bow's draw length/poundage fall into a gap in arrow manufacturing. There are only 2 arrows on the market that are long enough, the Black Eagles were too weak (.350) and the Axis arrows are almost too stiff. I tried every trick in the book to reduce dynamic spine without piling on point weight, but failed. You are lucky, and have a draw length conducive to a lot of tuning and tweaking to get a perfect arrow!

[ElkNut1]

Good stuff! What is your finished arrow weight with 300 grains up front?

ElkNut/Paul

[Roosiebull]

Awesome, thanks! I am staying open to heavier heads, I do realize that is the easiest way rather than insert weights, etc.

Thanks man!

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

Good stuff! What is your finished arrow weight with 300 grains up front?

ElkNut/Paul

Well I have 75 grain inserts as well, soooo...



800 grains

[ElkNut1]

Ha Ha, that is an over-load! (grin) Have you taken an elk with that?

ElkNut/Paul

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

Ha Ha, that is an over-load! (grin) Have you taken an elk with that?

ElkNut/Paul

No, I developed this setup last spring here in Texas. It's 100 grains heavier than I wanted. But tuning gets strange with a long draw, and bows handle heavier arrows better as well. The longer power stroke means more energy transfers to the arrow. before it leaves the string. It's enough to keep my trajectories good at 25-30 yards. I'd venture a guess that I'm not shooting slower than 160 fps and not faster than 175 fps. Once I shoot these up on hogs I plan to try and squeeze a setup out of the black eagles.

[ElkNut1]

Yes sir, you have a serious power stroke there with that longer draw, I feel sorry for them hogs! (big grin) Good luck!

ElkNut/Paul

[Roosiebull]

I just got a Blacktail Columbian 1pc longbow a short time ago, still been shooting like crazy, trying to tame my target panic. I have always had it, just never realized that's what it was. it's very manageable with a compound... not so much with trad bows. i'm shooting pretty good, but still have a lot of room to grow. i'm surprised how addicting this stuff is to me.

went over east last weekend, a short trip with kinda crappy weather, but still got to shoot some rats with my longbow i have went down the micro shaft arrow rabbit hole, had some good arrow recipes going, but now see the need to ditch the micro shafts, they are a pain.... think i will just go back to axis arrows.

looking to make my first turkey hunt pretty soon. it will be fun, but i realize the reality of getting close enough and getting my bow drawn... it'll be fun trying though.

i have decided to shoot my stick bows for everything this year besides lions. i told my wife she may have to fill the freezers this year, haha.

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

I just got a Blacktail Columbian 1pc longbow a short time ago, still been shooting like crazy, trying to tame my target panic. I have always had it, just never realized that's what it was.

Hey man! I dealt with target panic a few years back. Do yourself a favor and check out Joel Turner's Ironmind stuff. It's pure gold. TP is something that can be beaten, and his stuff helped me tremendously.

And the Easton Axis arrows are hard to beat. I'm building a set of their Trad version right now.

[Roosiebull]

I just got a Blacktail Columbian 1pc longbow a short time ago, still been shooting like crazy, trying to tame my target panic. I have always had it, just never realized that's what it was.

Hey man! I dealt with target panic a few years back. Do yourself a favor and check out Joel Turner's Ironmind stuff. It's pure gold. TP is something that can be beaten, and his stuff helped me tremendously.

And the Easton Axis arrows are hard to beat. I'm building a set of their Trad version right now.

I have been using Joel Turners stuff, and agree. I may reach out to him soon and see if he gives personal lessons. i'm doing better all of the time, and will beat it completely, just being a little hard headed doing it... go figure

i'm doing good for awhile, then bad habits slip back into my shot, and takes me a minute to realize it, and start the process over again. do you shoot a psycho trigger? if so, which?

i'm surprised Joel isn't a more popular entity in the compound world, i guarantee that 90% of the people would benefit from his stuff. also going to reach out to Tom Clum Sr and see about getting some lessons in Co as well, a couple little road trips that could help me out a lot i think.... really cool characters too

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

Yeah I use a psycho trigger, a variant of the grip sear. I placed a double thickness piece of electrical tape on the back of my riser. I hook my ring finger nail on the edge, and push towards the target with it till it pops off.

[Roosiebull]

that's a cool idea, and I will try that variant. I think a psycho trigger is really helpful, but I hate clickers. have you seen the handy clicker? I may get one of them to try too.

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

I have seen it, but if I'm going to use an external device I will use a clicker for the draw check.

Sent you a PM btw!