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Status on Elk herd

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Status on Elk herd

Postby DWBMontana » 02 22, 2019 •  [Post 1]

I grew up in the early 80's, reading and hearing of the great elk and deer hunting in the 60's and early 70's. I read of royal (7x7) elk being doable if you invested the time and work to harvest one. I am curious, in the big 4 states, CO, WY, MT, ID, where do you see the elk herds today? Number wise, trophy wise, opportunity wise?
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Re: Status on Elk herd

Postby Swede » 02 22, 2019 •  [Post 2]

The herd numbers are limited. They are not allowed to go over the objective size. Sometimes the management objectives are not met for various reasons. Also permitting large numbers of hunters to pursue elk and deer means it will be rare to see the huge bulls that were once around. There are still some, and when someone gets one it is advertised to keep people coming around to hunt.
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Re: Status on Elk herd

Postby DWBMontana » 02 22, 2019 •  [Post 3]

Actually, the objective's are over in many areas of Montana, if you believe the old objective number. Many believe this is not a realistic number here in Montana.
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Re: Status on Elk herd

Postby Lefty » 02 22, 2019 •  [Post 4]

So much of Idaho use to be great. Some of it still is!
What I consider one of the biggest problems is our legislature is still controlled by the ranching industry. Cows and crops are more important than proper big game management.
Last year a depredation fee was added to our tags, this year $200,000 was taken from the fish and game.

My father in law hit a big bull on the edge of Yellowstone in the 1960s. He spent days looking for it. Another hunter found it a week later scored over 380. This time of year glass the desert from the upper Snake to the middle of the state and there are some huge bulls.

Then the corner of Utah Idaho and Nevada,.. desert bulls not many but huge.

The big ones dont get seen a lot. Look at the history of some of the biggest deer and elk in any state,.. A goodly percentage die of old age. Or in the case of the one I kept track of ,.. wolves
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Re: Status on Elk herd

Postby Lefty » 02 22, 2019 •  [Post 5]

DWBMontana wrote:,,,the objective's are over in many areas ,,,,,,,,.

Objective are just that. In Idaho a number of items go into play, such as bull cow ratio. But the numbers are too often dictated by ranching interest.. I was speaking with a biologist a regional herds objective was 5300 elk. Habitat could sustain in excess of 15,000. Idaho objective is not for maximum or high elk population it is for reduced rancher complaints
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Re: Status on Elk herd

Postby Lsb » 02 22, 2019 •  [Post 6]

Hate to tell you lefty but ranches and farms bring in way more money in than wildlife. More taxes more jobs. And contrary to what most sportsman's groups spit out the private land owner isn't the bad guy. Look at the amount of trash and disrespect offered to public lands why would a private land owner let Joe blow in? I sure wouldn't.
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Re: Status on Elk herd

Postby Swede » 02 22, 2019 •  [Post 7]

DSCN0156.JPG
DSCN0156.JPG (220.13 KiB) Viewed 6072 times


The picture was posted on a Forest Service road open to the public. It was a bluff, but the F.S. let them get away with it.
The problem as I have witnessed it is that the ranchers have too much control over the public lands. They heavily over graze the public land and complain about how it is managed. They won't allow hunters on their own land, but want the State to pay for the deer and elk use. And if that is not enough they want more an more tags for themselves.

DSCN0142.JPG


The residual height of the grass was supposed to be 6 inches when the cattle were moved out. Again, nothing was done on the Emigrant Ranger District of the Malheur N.F.
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Re: Status on Elk herd

Postby Lsb » 02 22, 2019 •  [Post 8]

Swede, you have done it, I'm out. If you guys are going to bash private land owners I want nothing to do with this place. Private land owners are the ones providing the land for wildlife. You don't have access because of your attitude. I have access to over 100,000 acres of private land by multiple land owners because I have fostered a relationship with them to help them in day to day ranch work, fencing branding ect. And I treat them with respect. Respect breeds respect, if you treat them with respect you'll get somewhere. Respect and access can't be demaned it's earned, if sportsman tried that they'd have more access. Sorry this is a major Burr under my blanket.
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Re: Status on Elk herd

Postby Swede » 02 22, 2019 •  [Post 9]

I have never set a foot on that ranchers land or done anything to him or his property. The one time I stopped and spoke to him, he was moving some cows around. I informed him where about 10 head of his were in a canyon he was not familiar with. He thanked me, and I went on about my business.
I have more pictures if you are interesting in seeing how your public land is getting taken care of by this rancher and some others too. Did I mention that when the cattle graze the F.S. land down like you see in the picture, the elk move onto the ranch where there is plenty of good forage. Did I mention that I was informed the rancher allows no one to hunt his place except a few friends and ranch hands that have several years experience working the place.
I really don't care if he allows me or a person that shows him "respect" on his place. I do care how the public land gets treated.
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Re: Status on Elk herd

Postby Elkduds » 02 22, 2019 •  [Post 10]

Thinking about differences of opinion in online forums: Conflict is one of the 2 legs forums travel on, the other is making $. Without both, there would be no forums. In general, the tone of disagreement is mild here on WT. Which is (+), because it encourages respectful sharing of differences of opinion. @ least it is compared to many other forums, which a brief google surf will validate.

You know what you know, correct? You may not know what your opponent knows, nor understand it. When he adds to your knowledge, he strengthens you. When he disagrees with you, your opponent challenges you to clarify your views, communicate them in new ways, apply them to different situations. To disagree with someone is to encourage him, if he decides to use it as encouragement.

Do you believe you have a right to have and express your own opinion? If I disagree, do I have any less of that same right? Can we still apply that Golden Rule when the topic crosses whatever line each of us has defined as uncrossable? Yours could be private property, someone else's could be public access, for example. However you came by your absolutes, your opponent learned his just as strongly. Nobody changes anyone's mind in forum discussions. No judges, no losers, no winners. Each of us expresses his opinion, or belief, or certainty. Some give reasons for that opinion. Some don't have reasons, or can't identify them. Some just argue for the sake of arguing. When you have made your best case online, you can stop. Or take the bait.

Proverbs 27:17 "As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another." Agreement does very little of this sharpening, conflict does much. I didn't get that tidbit in church, I read it on another hunting oriented forum.

I triple dog dare anyone to disagree :twisted:
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Re: Status on Elk herd

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 02 22, 2019 •  [Post 11]

Rock solid post mister, well except for the $s part as I’m thinking hard about selling a few dogs and some packs of blacktail jerky to pay my pending domain and web site design company fees before I have to fold :D. Here’s the crux of the biscuit, share..comment..learn.. create thought provoking threads/topics, make recs based on experience in Wapiti Talk but use discretion when posting. If anybody does not appreciate the established “tone” of our forum and wishes to push the conversational envelope to say, a conversarial level, there are other forums that actually embrace that sort of exchange. This is a forum that will remain steadfast in its original configuration, established many years ago. Stay the course folks..or I will adjust as necessary...RJ
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Re: Status on Elk herd

Postby Swede » 02 22, 2019 •  [Post 12]

I agree with you Mark. I try to have solid reasons based on experience or generally accepted authorities as the basis of these disagreements. No one is obligated to agree of disagree. What I am saying here is "this is my experience and here is my evidence". Respectful disagreement is helpful in giving perspective. If we all share the same information based on similar experience, all that is needed is one person or one post. The rest are redundant.
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Re: Status on Elk herd

Postby Lefty » 02 23, 2019 •  [Post 13]

Lsb wrote:Hate to tell you lefty but ranches and farms bring in way more money in than wildlife. More taxes more jobs. And contrary to what most sportsman's groups spit out the private land owner isn't the bad guy. Look at the amount of trash and disrespect offered to public lands why would a private land owner let Joe blow in? I sure wouldn't.

My father in law use to run 1700 head, on his own ground. I feed cows for fellow who ran a cow calf /feedlot.
Im not disagreeing with what you are saying. Not at all,.. I am not anti cow/ rancher/farmer ,.. But everything shouldnt be based on revenue. Maybe my background complaint is government subsidies to nearly every form of business which public land grazing is a part of

I dont know of a single group of public land users who dont "abuse " public land. Hikers, Bikers, motor sports, miners, oilmen, and ranchers.
There are places and times wildlife does bring in more money than ranching,.. but again it shouldnt be about the money.
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Re: Status on Elk herd

Postby DWBMontana » 02 23, 2019 •  [Post 14]

I have requested data from Montana fwp regarding elk hunting here in Montana, I am hoping I receive it this next week, regarding number of elk permits sold since the mid 1970's to last year, I hope to be able to share this data when I receive it.
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Re: Status on Elk herd

Postby Chuckler » 02 25, 2019 •  [Post 15]

I recently read a good article. It pointed out that while elk numbers in Montana are excellent, it can be harder to find elk on public land at times. Many private landowners have recognized the money to be made off of outfitting and trespass fees. As a result, ranchers are less likely to just let hunters on, as used to be more common. The article pointed out that we used to push the elk into the mountains. Now, we push the elk back to the lowlands from the mountains and down to the private where there is less pressure. So in short, elk numbers are excellent but land use and ownership have changed. Hence, patterns have changed. I can't remember where I read the article, otherwise, I would reference it.

As far as the whole debate between private and public owners: whatever. Both, private landowners and public land users have people amongst their ranks that have integrity and others that don't. Unfortunately, people will be people on either side.
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Re: Status on Elk herd

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 02 25, 2019 •  [Post 16]

Good post Chuckler; I'd be interested in reading that article if you can locate it again. What I've noticed in W WA over the past say, 5ish + years, is that the huge private timber companies (Rayoneer, Weyerhauser, etc.) have followed the eastern lead and gated/restricted access to all their lands, requiring a pretty stiff access or lease fee if one wishes to access the lands for hunting/recreation. Back in the day.... you could access/hunt many of these large tracts of land but now..you either have to pay a nominal fee to walk in (say, $150) or a significant fee for drive in access ($350 on up) to hunt/recreate. The lease plots are much, much more. I wouldn't say that the elk necessarily gravitate towards these lands vs. adjacent public (NF and state lands) but hunting pressure is less which makes those lands appealing. When the private timberlands border actual private landowner land, the elk will poke in and out of the timberlands but yep, will play hop scotch back and forth as the hunting pressure dictates ;).
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Re: Status on Elk herd

Postby elkstalker » 02 26, 2019 •  [Post 17]

In MT the primary issue is not elk numbers, but elk distribution and huntability. The first week of the season many herds are pushed onto private where they never leave until the season is over. Landowners complain about elk damages, and many do allow hunting and damage hunts to try and push elk off, however many do not. So total herd numbers remain robust, while the "problem elk" continue to be a problem. Shoulder seasons make it even worse as some hunts run through February, and public lands elk continue to be harvested and educated about where they are safe (not public lands). I still have no trouble getting into elk, but the issue is still real.
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Re: Status on Elk herd

Postby DWBMontana » 03 04, 2019 •  [Post 18]

Some very good post. I received data from State of Montana dating back to 1995 for number of licenses sold, I am hoping to get data from 1975 or earlier, but that has not happened yet. From 1995 to 2018, the number of general elk tags to residents increased some, NR are set at 17,000 a year, but with the implementation of the "come home to hunt" program, NR tags are now over 18,000. B tags of increased the most with none being sold in 1995 to over 31,500 B tags sold in 2018, 28,877 to residents, 2,738 to NR. So, the state is allowing increased hunting on the elk herd, allowing hunting for cows from August 15 to Feb. 15 in quite a few high density areas, deemed to be "over objective". If one has time, there is much info on the Montana fwp site, "elk plan", very interesting reading. I do know, many different people are calling for a review of "objective numbers", questioning the reason(s) these numbers were set. The geographic area that elk call home in Montana has increased. Good management is much needed, with an increase in resident hunters, allowing NR hunters to hunt, keeping the agricultural interest happy, throw in outfitters and guides, elk and deer hunting is a complicated endeavor.
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Re: Status on Elk herd

Postby scubohuntr » 03 06, 2019 •  [Post 19]

I didn't see anything against private landowners in Swede's post. The issue was abuse of public lands by lessees (some of whom don't own an acre of their own land) and neighboring ranchers. It's a problem of viewpoints. I don't own any huntable land (half an acre in town with my house on it). I don't have the connections, the time, or the proximity to help out on a ranch in hopes of someday getting access. I pay for hunting licenses and I pay Pittman-Robertson taxes on my gear. From my point of view, a landowner that gets paid every year for elk depredation ought to be required to allow some access to hunters, because they are paying for management of the elk. I don't expect wide-open access for everyone, or access to all the property, but just some return on the public money he is receiving. Hunting is really the only way FWP has to manage the herds. Of course, outfitting should mean you don't get access to any public funds or resources. You have chosen to take over the management of the public's wildlife on your land for profit. Have fun with it.

Now if I was a landowner, my point of view would be entirely different. I'd like to say I'd be really good about allowing public access, but I'd be lying. I would be very particular about who hunts on my land and when. I understand that landowners don't want to let just anyone have unrestricted access to the land they (or their grandparents) have worked hard for. I respect private land and landowners. I don't ask for access, because I don't want to be one of those guys bugging the landowner for permission. I'm sure they get enough of that already. I hunt public land and BMAs. If I happen to see broken fences, straying stock, or trespassing on neighboring private land, I will call the landowner and let him know, and not expect anything in return.

People who abuse public land deserve no respect or courtesy. Whether it is somebody gating or posting public land illegally, lessees mismanaging grazing, or hunters driving off road, the law should come down hard on all of them.
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Re: Status on Elk herd

Postby Swede » 03 06, 2019 •  [Post 20]

I lived for years in ranch country. There were some wonderful folks that owned ranches and some grazed the public land. There were some jerks too. Some ranchers offered to let me hunt their land. Mostly they were the folks that I went to church with or I had some other dealings with. I never hunted any of their property even though one would often tell me about seeing elk nearby. I had a tree stand only 300 yards - 400 yards away from one of the ranches.
I was getting elk where I was hunting and familiar with the elk activity. I had no reason to change.
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