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New guy

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New guy

Postby Arrow1 » 03 16, 2019 •  [Post 1]

Hey guys, just wanted to say thanks for the add to the forum. I came across it a couple weeks ago in my search for some info. I am a Missouri hunter and would really love to come out west to hunt. I am trying to get my brother in law to go elk hunting with me. Sorry guys we don’t have elk around here lol. I have done some research over the last 6 months on several Colorado otc units along with a little research on Wyoming and Montana. We have discussed diy and guided and haven’t really come to a conclusion on how we want to go about it yet. Anyway just wanted to say hey and that I am enjoying the forum.
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Re: New guy

Postby Swede » 03 16, 2019 •  [Post 2]

Welcome to the forum Arrow1. I am sure we can help you plan and execute an elk hunt. We may even help you execute an elk. Those aggravating critters need an arrow for sure. I would not get hung up on what State to hunt unless there is more to your hunt than just getting elk. Check out good units and areas if you can. I think a guided hunt would be great for your first trip if you can afford it. Anyway welcome to our wallow, er I mean campfire.
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Re: New guy

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 03 16, 2019 •  [Post 3]

Welcome aboard Arrow, glad to have you join our humble forum ;)
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Re: New guy

Postby Indian Summer » 03 16, 2019 •  [Post 4]

Guided: Short term goal of killing an elk. Less effort. More money. Less hunting time. Partner not quite as important. Not as much self planning. Don’t have to be as adventurous.

Unguided: Less money. More hunting time. Anything you buy gear wise is an investment in the future IF you plan to keep elk hunting. More effort. Partner extremely important. Planning is half the fun. More fun and rewarding if you’re adventurous.

Welcome aboard and good luck. Let us know what questions you have.
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Re: New guy

Postby Arrow1 » 03 16, 2019 •  [Post 5]

In your opinion for a person new to elk hunting how much knowledge could be gained from a guided hunt? I like the idea of a guided hunt to get my feet wet but would also like to get to a point in the near future where I would feel comfortable or at least have some confidence in doing it diy. I know all of that comes with a lot of hard work and experience.
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Re: New guy

Postby Elkduds » 03 16, 2019 •  [Post 6]

Welcome to the WT campfire, and welcome in advance to CO elk hunting. IMO a guided hunt on public land would be an excellent training course w the right guide. Moreso than a guided hunt on private ground, where the game location, movements and timing are known in advance by the guides. The better guides and outfitters are booked a few years in advance, unless you can find a cancellation. How long are you willing to wait?
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Re: New guy

Postby Swede » 03 16, 2019 •  [Post 7]

Reading self help books is cheaper and probably second to a guided hunt. It could be as good except self you have to find your own elk. That is not always easy even in good elk country. Also the DIY hunter has so much to learn that it will take you a while to get it all together in your mind. The problem with some books is you do not get enough context to know how to apply it where you hunt, and in the situation you find yourself.
Guides differ I suppose, but from the little I have been around them I would not say they are in the business helping you become an independent hunter.
I wrote the tree stand book advertised here on the forum. It tells you all you need to succeed that way, but you need to find a good location to place your stand. I think it gives you enough tips to get you well started on that, but it can still take time. I went out several days in a new place last summer and searched for a high quality stand location. I found a few and got an elk. I know hunters that have picked up the book and immediately started getting elk and have been consistent.
Calling elk is the great draw on elk hunters, but it is far from easy, and there are many places it just no longer works.
Personally I would enjoy a good guided hunt, so I did not have to think. Maybe when I die I could bequeath my brain to someone in mint condition. Learning elk, and hunting the rascals will definitely tax your grey matter. That is what makes it so addicting.
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Re: New guy

Postby Arrow1 » 03 16, 2019 •  [Post 8]

Elkduds I am willing to wait on a guided hunt. Seeing as we are just getting into this we don't have an points to get into higher tier units. We will probably try to build a few while doing otc just to gain some experience. I'd hate to spend time waiting while not at least tryin.
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Re: New guy

Postby Arrow1 » 03 16, 2019 •  [Post 9]

Swede thanks for the input we will definitely check out your book. I totally understand guides not wanting people to become independent hunters as it would cut into business.
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Re: New guy

Postby Elkhunttoo » 03 16, 2019 •  [Post 10]

A few big helps for just getting knowledge are elknuts tips and clips on this forum.

YouTube is also full of elk hunting videos. Some people might disagree with some of the ways people hunt but I feel that you can gain knowledge by watching elk do elk things. You can see mistakes people make and try to learn from them to help minimize your own mistakes that you will make. I make plenty every year and learn every year.

Some of the channels I like are... elk101, stuck n the rut, born and raised outdoors (with there land of the free projects they have done they have hours and hours of good elk hunting, where you can learn about all aspects of the hunt) hushin, and there are many more. Good luck to you on your journey. It is SO worth it!!!
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Re: New guy

Postby Arrow1 » 03 16, 2019 •  [Post 11]

Thanks elkhunttoo I will have to look that stuff up on youtube.
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Re: New guy

Postby Indian Summer » 03 17, 2019 •  [Post 12]

One thing to always keep in mind: When you ask a question you will get several different answers. That’s because people’s answers are based on 2 things. Where they hunt and their style of hunting.

Elk duds is right... you won’t learn much on private ground whether guided or on your own. To me you’d be using deer hunting tactics.

Usually a hunters preferred area, lay of the land and amount of cover versus open country, is based on their styrofoam hunting.

So break it down. Bow hunter mainly call. They prefer cover possibly with some openings. There are stand hunters who need cover with bottleneck travel areas or intersections. Still hunters who usually spend time on the move in more timbered areas, and spot and stalk guys who locate animals by glassing. So you might ask why each one prefers their method and decide which one or what combination of them suits your personality. In my opinion personality has a lot to do with a favorite style of hunting.

I like to glass a lot. Mid day when animals are in the cover out of direct sunlight I still hunt. I’m patient and can sit for a long time. I prefer to see elk at distances before they see me so I can plan my approach based on cover and wind. But also a make it happen type of hunter so once animals have moved into cover for the day I go looking. Hopefully I’m going to look for elk I’ve seen while glassing.

As far as learning from guides... it’s almost a crap shoot. I have had guides work for me that were great teachers. Very good people skills and communication. I’ve also had guides who were great hunters but just didn’t pass on much information. You would learn by observing. So if you book a guided hunt be very clear with the outfitter that you’d like a fun guide who was talkative about what his game plans were and why. If you can request that the outfitter himself guides you because they usually enjoy teaching and telling clients what’s going on. I used to teach all of my hunters as much as I could. They would book guided hunts, learn some tactics and learn my area... then come back as drop camp hunters and hunt on their own from a camp I set up. If you can find an outfitter that offers drop camps that would be a really good multi year plan

Saddlesore knows a darn good one, Jeanne Horne is her name. You might check her out. She’s in Colorado.

Here’s a link: http://www.jbarhoutfitters.com

I book hunts for a good Montana outfitter if you’re interested in hunting up there. I also sell diy hunt plans in Montana and Wyoming if you’d like to think about that route. Even if you are a beginner at least you’d be armed with a great plan in a great area. Here’s a link to my site or you can always click on my sponsor link above. www.headinwest.net
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Re: New guy

Postby Arrow1 » 03 17, 2019 •  [Post 13]

Thanks for the info Indian summer. I get that I will get a lot of different answer based on everyone’s experience and style. That’s kind of what I like about it. A guy can take everyone’s different tactics and blend them into his own. I have looked at jbarhoutfitters. It looks like they run a nice outfit. Also looks like it would take a couple years to get the points to try it.
The hunt plans sound very interesting!
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Re: New guy

Postby DWBMontana » 03 17, 2019 •  [Post 14]

I would concentrate on private ground hunts. First, you will hunt elk in more natural state , where they are not pressured near as much. I live just north of the Missouri breaks here in Montana, one of the most popular elk hunting destinations here in Montana with public lands. In the last 20 years or so, it has changed quite a bit. It requires a draw for NR along with even resident hunters for even bow...let alone a rifle tag which is a very low chance of drawing for a bull, so most locals rely on archery season to fill their tags if they stay up this way and hunt close to home. Elk have changed their pattern in the breaks, bugling only at night mostly, bedding into deep cuts or down in the willows when available. Then there are the hunters, it is almost impossible to not see others during the day, or worse yet, have your hunted busted by another hunter. I know this is not just what the breaks have become, most public land hunts are close to this, hunters have much more info, mobility, and frankly more disposable income then we had just a couple generations ago. Private ground on the other hand, is a place you will see elk behave as they normally do when not pushed by the hoards of hunters. I enjoy just watching elk and deer when they are undisturbed, I could do it for hours, in fact I have. I have seen bulls battle, not even thinking to shoot, just enjoying the moment. Hearing bulls bugle, cows chirp, it is a wonderful thing. I am not saying it doesn't occur on public lands, but it is not as frequent as you will find on private land. Remember, elk were at one time a open plains animal , and were pushed to the mountains by our western movement. I have found they still like open areas, unless pushed by hunters. One should be proud of taking an elk on public ground, bull or cow, absolutely. I also know the odds are very low of it happening, especially for a NR, without a guide. In 2017, 18,454 general tags were sold in Montana for elk, 3741 took a bull, so around 20%, I am not sure how many of those hired an outfitter, but I am guessing a large portion did. If I was a NR, and only had public lands to hunt, I would think long and hard about spending over $900 for an elk tag, let alone cost involved of getting here, gearing up, and the cost of everything thing else involved. Are there successful NR hunters who get their elk on public lands most years they come, yes, and it seems like its the same people year after year that have been successful which is true of residents also. Having private ground to hunt means controlled access, perhaps, you and or your group will be the only folks hunting, this is a huge benefit. Most ranches in Montana are pretty good size outfits, thus, if elk are hunted smart on private ground, many times they will not be pushed off of the place, unlike public land, where herds are bumped from draw to draw. Good luck in your hunting/
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Re: New guy

Postby Arrow1 » 03 17, 2019 •  [Post 15]

DwbMontana I agree with you on the private land aspect and would love to be able to hunt a place like that. I'm sure most of us would. I have looked at several places that do diy private land hunts just a little skeptical of it I guess. Would have to really do my homework, just like anything else. How big of a ranch should a guy be looking for? I'm sure that depends on location and habitat. Does anyone have experience with rocky Mountain ranches?
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Re: New guy

Postby Indian Summer » 03 18, 2019 •  [Post 16]

Private land has pros and cons. One con I’ll pass on is boundaries. I need unlimited space which means unlimited options to hunt elk. I’m always ready with plans A, B, and C. What if the elk aren’t on your huntable property or if you bump them off? I’ve been there and it’s really depressing. But even if that wasn’t an issue I would feel unfulfilled if I didn’t roam the big mountains with big views and ever changing smells etc.

The other thing is cost. You will always have to pay for a license and fuel to get there. For less than the cost of a 1 year lease you can buy a wall tent and everything to go with it. After that the actual hunting is free. With a land lease you will double or triple your cost every year. Then if the hunting is good the cost goes up. If it’s really good one day you find out someone else made the landowner a better offer and you’re looking for a new home.
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Re: New guy

Postby Swede » 03 18, 2019 •  [Post 17]

How about those private land hunts where you pay $10,000 or more up front. A ranch hand calls a bull in for you by ringing the dinner bell? "Your money allows you to shoot Charlie. He will be the first one to the trough. Old Ben will be behind, he will cost you an extra $5,000 if you shoot him. They are the only two elk in this five acre pasture, so don't make a mistake and get the wrong one," are your instructions. :D
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Re: New guy

Postby DWBMontana » 03 18, 2019 •  [Post 18]

Swede wrote:How about those private land hunts where you pay $10,000 or more up front. A ranch hand calls a bull in for you by ringing the dinner bell? "Your money allows you to shoot Charlie. He will be the first one to the trough. Old Ben will be behind, he will cost you an extra $5,000 if you shoot him. They are the only two elk in this five acre pasture, so don't make a mistake and get the wrong one," are your instructions. :D

Come on, most private land hunts are nothing like this, you know better.
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Re: New guy

Postby DWBMontana » 03 18, 2019 •  [Post 19]

Indian Summer wrote:Private land has pros and cons. One con I’ll pass on is boundaries. I need unlimited space which means unlimited options to hunt elk. I’m always ready with plans A, B, and C. What if the elk aren’t on your huntable property or if you bump them off? I’ve been there and it’s really depressing. But even if that wasn’t an issue I would feel unfulfilled if I didn’t roam the big mountains with big views and ever changing smells etc.

The other thing is cost. You will always have to pay for a license and fuel to get there. For less than the cost of a 1 year lease you can buy a wall tent and everything to go with it. After that the actual hunting is free. With a land lease you will double or triple your cost every year. Then if the hunting is good the cost goes up. If it’s really good one day you find out someone else made the landowner a better offer and you’re looking for a new home.


First, boundaries are everywhere, private or public, how many times have you seen elk pushed from Forest Service ground to private? I would wager here in Montana a majority, perhaps , large majority of elk are harvested on private ground. As for cost, it is true, it will be pricey, but like I mentioned, your odds of actually harvesting elk go up, way up. I love spending time in the mountains, can not get enough of it, but if I want elk, I hunt private.
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Re: New guy

Postby DWBMontana » 03 18, 2019 •  [Post 20]

Arrow1 wrote:DwbMontana I agree with you on the private land aspect and would love to be able to hunt a place like that. I'm sure most of us would. I have looked at several places that do diy private land hunts just a little skeptical of it I guess. Would have to really do my homework, just like anything else. How big of a ranch should a guy be looking for? I'm sure that depends on location and habitat. Does anyone have experience with rocky Mountain ranches?


I never said it would be easy, LOL. I know in Montana there are a few ranches that book hunters themselves and allow diy hunts. I also see quite a few advertising online for Colorado , NM, Utah. They are out there, you just have to do your research, I am sure a lot will be dead ends, but with time you would find a good fit, good luck.
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Re: New guy

Postby Swede » 03 18, 2019 •  [Post 21]

I never said "most" are like that. I never insinuated they were. I said, and I repeat, "How about those private land hunts where you pay $10,000 ..." It was a tongue in cheek gesture, but they definitely exist. They had representatives at every sportsman's show I have gone to. I know a person that went on one for a meat hunt. It was not a "hunt" in his mind but he got a lot of meat at some reasonable price. BTW: The hunt was in Montana. Maybe you know them?
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Re: New guy

Postby DWBMontana » 03 18, 2019 •  [Post 22]

I do not know any personally, yes I have heard stories like yours. I would argue this is not the norm. Like I mentioned in a previous post, a person has to do their research. I know in Montana, there is a reason outfitters lease up so much land and competing with them is expensive, I know that on a firsthand basis. Having your own land to hunt on without having to worry about somebody else hunting the same area is worth it to me. I have access all year if I choose, so I have the ability to enjoy the land all year long, whenever I may choose. It is so nice setting up a camp and not have to worry about being disturbed by others, no noisy atv's or vehicles driving by, stirring up dust, no obnoxious neighbors camping adjacent to you, not having to worry about leaving camp and having something go missing, these are a huge benefit I believe. I do not hunt with the rancher or anyone from the ranch, I am free to roam about as I choose, I am guessing most leases are like this. Every form of hunting be it guided, DIY, leasing, has it's high points and pitfalls.
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Re: New guy

Postby Swede » 03 18, 2019 •  [Post 23]

Well said DWB. I have no problem with private land hunts, or for that matter high fence ones. Deer and elk from a high fence hunt is really no different that buying steaks and hamburger at the super market. It is honorable and easy enough.
I knew Arrow1 was not interested in a high fence hunt from the beginning. That is why I said it was "a tongue in cheek gesture." It was my suggestion because it is just another step past the private land hunts mentioned earlier in the thread.
Everyone I know of that pays or works to hunt private land is doing it for some advantage. That size of the advantage can vary. On one ranch a friend of mine hunts from his wheel chair, and goes out into the yard after breakfast, and shoots his elk in an alfalfa field opening morning. Others hunt where (private timber land) the chances are just moderately better than adjacent public land. I suspect the price, or the amount of work required is based on just how great the advantage is.
If there was no real advantage to hunting private land ("in a more natural state") and in Arrow1's case paying for access, why bother? Just get out and hunt. Where I hunted last year I could run into people in one area and I went to places where I never saw anyone for days. I certainly can show anyone a huge wilderness and Nat. Rec.Area tracts of land where ATVs, generators, etc. are no issue.
I guess I would need to see this "natural state" ranch you speak of. The ones I am familiar have predator controls, domestic stock control, alfalfa or other crops for feed, range seeding of high quality grasses and forbs, water troughs and human controls beyond what has been around for several thousand years.
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Re: New guy

Postby DWBMontana » 03 18, 2019 •  [Post 24]

Comparing high fence ranches to most private ranches makes absolutely no sense to me. You are aware that most hunting in the U.S is done on private ground, correct? You really do not understand what I met by "natural state"? I will say it again, like I did in original post. Public land big game animals are pushed, and pushed and pushed some more. I am sure there are wilderness hunts a hunter can avoid most other hunters, but they are becoming less and less, you have forums like this one, you have map apps that show any one who has it where ALL public lands are, you see more mobility in hunters, heck, you see hunters being helicoptered into public lands at times, I have seen that first hand here in Montana. A ranch of several thousand acres, can be hunted smartly, but that depends on those leasing it. Is it possible to blow everything off a private land, yep. Myself, I am smarter then that. Big game depend on private land a heck of a lot, and I would argue, actually keep the elk population healthy and in the case of Montana, actually growing. They provide sanctuary from pressure at times, feed during the winter, sometimes better calving conditions and less predators. It seems the rage in the last few years to glorify public land hunts, you see it on television, internet. Myself, I think having private ground shows you are willing in most cases to work for something, but in todays world, so many think they are entitled to whatever it is they want.
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Re: New guy

Postby Indian Summer » 03 18, 2019 •  [Post 25]

Different strokes for different folks. I have always lived by the words To Each His Own. If something makes you happy that’s all that matters. I’m a mountain man. I get all of those same benefits by working a little harder or getting an early start. I have never hunted anywhere that I couldn’t have some peace and quiet and country to myself. I’m pretty sure I was born a hundred years too late so it takes me back to an era I would like to have lived in when I conquer country that’s free for the taking by those who have the kahunas to go for it. I killed this bull on private land over near the Bighorn Mountains in eastern Wyoming. It wasn’t very expensive to lease the place. $1500 for 2 weeks. I would never go back. The area was beautiful. But too easy for me. I was bored to death. I thought about the mountains on the west side all week long. It was like driving a Ferrari in a 25mph school zone! I’ve enjoyed hunting mule deer and antelope on 30,000 acre ranches. I’d do that again. Those animals have smaller home ranges and many never left the property. But elk... and me :D have bigger home ranges and we enjoy covering ground and having new scenery to gaze it. There are some monster bulls in the Missouri River Breaks. The public land gets pounded. I guess if I had to hunt that area I’d rather hunt a ranch. But there’s also the issue of drawing a tag because there’s so much competition for the resource. Eventually I’d have to escape the rat race and head for the hills. The other thing I really like about the mountains is you are always learning and getting better. Learning familiar areas better and learning new country. And learning how the elk use it. That keeps me coming back for sure. It keeps things fresh. Fresh and new which makes a guy feel like a kid again. Who doesn’t like that feeling?
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Re: New guy

Postby DWBMontana » 03 18, 2019 •  [Post 26]

Have you thought about how people acquired private ground to hunt on? Many worked their azz off for it, working O.T., a second job, worked 18 hour days at their business, I would be careful insinuate that they are not working hard and lack "kahunas". I admit it takes knowledge, ability and courage to pack in several miles into our public lands, they are truly special places. Glad you are able to get back into the mountains and enjoy them when you can, I can not imagine living as far away as you do from them, it must be a pleasure to get away from all the people and commotion, I can not imagine living back there with all those folks. How many months are you able to spend in Montana and Wyoming? Spending time in the mountains like you do, I am sure you have seen many changes with the amount of pressure that are imposed on them. I have been hunting quite a while, and, living in Montana I know many outdoorsman, and I have never heard one say he had "have never hunted anywhere that I couldn’t have some peace and quiet and country to myself", you are indeed a lucky man. Most folks I know, at some point in the hunting careers have had to endure those occasional times in the field, I know I have.
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Re: New guy

Postby Indian Summer » 03 19, 2019 •  [Post 27]

I wasn’t referring to the work not related to the hunt. I work like a dog for 60 hours a week with only one day off in between. I’m talking about the work come hunt and camp time. Well... actually the work required to leave things like people and atvs behind. But I like that work. I’m a hiking machine. By no means the model of physical fitness but druven mentally to work really hard come hunt time. I feel like if I pay the price un sweat I’ll reap the rewards. To me you get out of it what you put into it. I’ve felt the sense of accomplishment achieved by being patient and sitting for days to kill a whitetail buck. It’s the same as when I hunted private land elk. I still enjoy that when I deer hunt. But when I’m after elk I like to be more physical. I’ve never hunted Colorado. I’ve definitely hunted where there were plenty of other hunters. But even then my plan was to work harder drop lower ir climb higher to be in the 10% that punches tags. But in western Montana and Wyoming I’ve always had the option to just walk away from ut all and see nobody. The truth is that’s not always necessary to kill elk. It’s more of a preference. This year I’m going to do that. For fun, for old times sake... and also for more undisturbed hunting. Also for the views! I love it up there! But as I said... to each his or her own.
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Re: New guy

Postby elkstalker » 03 19, 2019 •  [Post 28]

Welcome to the board Arrow, I've learned a lot from these guys and you will too, glad to have you around! Elk hunting is a great addiction enjoy the ride
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Re: New guy

Postby Swede » 03 19, 2019 •  [Post 29]

elkstalker wrote:Welcome to the board Arrow, I've learned a lot from these guys and you will too, glad to have you around! Elk hunting is a great addiction enjoy the ride


I am glad they don't all hunt the same area, the same way and subscribe to the same elk club. I think we all have learned from the skills and perspectives of others here. I personally believe that you can get more here than from many of the other forums because we do not drift of onto totally irrelevant realms. Well, usually we stay focused. :D
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