2020 Elk Trip (formerly Montana)

[VT Sasquatch]

Hi guys: I haven’t been on here in a while but I am getting the itch to hunt elk a second time. In 2016 I drove to Colorado and spent a week solo bow hunting for elk in an OTC unit. I had a good time and saw a few elk but never got within bow range. I would like to try again but with a rifle this time. I have a couple preference points in Colorado but I think I will use them on a muzzleloader tag eventually.

I am almost always a solo hunter. It is not because I am hard to get along with but I am from an urban area on the east coast where hunting is not all that popular. I grew up with a place in the Appalachian Mountains and I am very comfortable in the woods. I bivi hunt for deer in the Adirondacks and also hunt deer in Vermont and Pennsylvania. I’m in reasonably good shape for a guy that works in an office. I also have more gear that I know what to do with.

Anyway, I would like to try rifle elk hunting and I am thinking the Montana backcountry season would fit my schedule best. I have looked at drop camps but none seem to accommodate solo hunters. I could try yo talk a friend into going but I doubt I would be able to. As a result, I think I would be stuck hiking in myself and, if successful, packing out myself. I would not want to venture more than a few miles (5ish) from my truck or I might run into trouble packing out. Rather than setting up a base camp, I would prefer to stay mobile and sleep in a bivi sack.

My main question is whether this is feasible. I have never been to Montana. I know drop camps are frequently 10 or more miles from the road/trail head. Are there elk only a couple miles deep? Would there be heavy hunting pressure in the Bob Marshall wilderness within a couple/few miles of a road?

Thanks for any help. I am open to other suggestions.

[Swede]

I suppose what you are wanting to do is feasible, but why decide on a drop camp before you know exactly where you want to hunt and determine that is the best was to approach the hunt? I would consider a drop camp as a last resort. Maybe you can hunt your area with just a spike camp or maybe even from a base camp and then day hunt. If I wanted to hunt somewhere in Hells Canyon or back in some wilderness, because I know I have a better chance to get game there or there is something there I want to experience; I would have to trust some wrangler to be ready to haul me in, check on me and get my stuff out on time.
Do you have a good location in Montana or are you just casting a worm into the ocean and hoping there is something there that is going to bite? There are parts or that State where the elk hunting is about as good as the Bronx.

[VT Sasquatch]

I would be just trying to scout from afar. If I was going to set out on a bivi hunt, I would choose an access point (hopefully based on tips or long distance research and just set out from there for a week. I know this is way less likely to be successful than if I lived nearby and kept tabs on the elk but that is not possible for me.

[Indian Summer]

Do NOT go to the Bob. I can only think of one reason to go there and that would be a summer trip to enjoy the scenery. Elk are scarce there. Really scarce. It’s not what you might read about from 10-15 years ago. It’s grizzly country too if that matters to you. Same goes for northwestern Montana around Noxon. It had it’s day but you’d be lucky to find an elk now.

I know a pretty good area in Wyoming with a rifle start date around the 25th of September. You can draw a tag with zero points if you’re lucky but it takes 2 to get it for sure. The nice thing about hunting that place is if you are a bow hunter you can plan your dates to bow hunt half the time and finish with a gun if necessary.

If you are set on Montana and want a drop camp let me know. A friend I talked to yesterday has an opening on the first week of gun season.

To answer one of your questions... you can certainly kill elk from a base camp at the truck. There are elk within 2 miles of just about every road where I hunt. I do not know of any pack in camps that are more than 5 miles in. Funny how so many people think that elk avoid pavement and gravel at all costs. Not true at all and I’m sure others will chime in telling you the same thing.


If you really want to spend 2 grand on an outfitter I understand. But if you plan on going back to hunt Montana or Wyoming in the future you might want to consider one of my diy hunt plans. Pay for it once and go back as many times as you want at no cost. It would sure be easier to line up a hunting partner if the didn’t have to pay a couple thousand bucks to an outfitter.

http://www.headinwest.net

[VT Sasquatch]

Thanks. I figured the elk would not avoid roads but I figured there might be so many hunters near access points that it might push them back. Thanks for the info. I might be interested in one of your plans. I’ll let you know.

Also, I don’t think I would do a base camp from my truck. I would want to stay mobile and hunt with a backpack since the backcountry area doesn’t have good vehicle access.

I looked on your website but didn’t see any prices.

[Swede]

I would rather have a hunt plan from I.S. any day over a drop camp. He has good areas to hunt and you are not dependent on anyone else to haul you in or get you out. If I use drop camp services it is because I want to hunt some special spot and can find no other way in and out.
Like I.S. said, elk come close to roads. Two years ago I started hunting a new area. I hiked over a mile in to a spot that looked really good. I set a tree stand there and went in the first morning for my hunt. Soon after I heard some voices above and knew two men were walking along through the forest. I saw there was an old trail above, but thought it long abandoned. I concluded it must still be usable and was happy to go back to my waiting and watching when the voices became too faint to hear. Later that morning I heard a vehicle drive down a road about where I had heard the voices. Rats, I thought. I am very near a road. That evening I went out to the truck a little early so I could find that road. It did not take long and as I drove along with my GPS in hand, I soon discovered my stand was 700 feet from the road. Still, I got an elk there and my son got one there this season.

[Lefty]

If bivi hunting is your thing ignore my suggestions. One can certainly be more mobile in deep country.

I use to hunt remote parts of Idaho desert. I parked and camped on BLM 2 tracks more often than not I was the only person in a 5-10 mile radius and started hunting right from camp.
And that worked well there

Where I hunt now and with my daughter and her boyfriend I dont pack in for the day . We stay "mobile" camping from a relatively secluded dead end forest service road or we can ride the ATVs or hook up a trailer and hunt 5-10-20 miles away.

What im getting at is I can and could spike camp if necessary , but there is a lot to be said about a good night sleep, or staying out of nasty weather .

[VT Sasquatch]

Thanks Lefty. I enjoy bivi hunting but like a good base camp where practical. From what research I have done, it looks like the early backcountry zone in MT starts 5 to 7 miles in from the trailheads. That makes it difficult without horses. I guess I could hike in the day before the season opens and stay back there with lightweight gear. The problem would be if I managed to get one. Packing hundreds of pounds of meat that distance would be very, very difficult. It would be impossible in warm conditions. If what I am seeing is accurate, I will have to rework my potential plan. I guess there may be an outfitter that would retrieve meat for a fee.

Maybe Idaho would be a better option. I have heard the wolves have really decimated the elk there but I may look into Idaho options. Thanks for the help.

[Old school]

Where I bowhunt in Idaho - it’s over run with people. Not quite as bad as Colorado but it’s working it’s way there. I hunted Montana one time with a rifle and I hunted the southern tip of the Bob. Shot the only elk I saw - a decent 6x6. Probably 5 miles from the parking lot. Hardly any other hunters there - but plenty of Griz. The Bob is a great place for scenery and light hunting pressure - the downside is that you probably won’t see many elk either. Better shoot the first one you see because it might be the only one you’ll see.

-Mitch

[VT Sasquatch]

Thanks, Old School. That sounds like what I am looking for. If a griz kills me, at least I’ll make the newspaper. Did you go in on foot? How did you get the elk out?

[Old school]

Dad and I went on horseback - had an outfitter for that gun hunt. Scenery is beautiful, peaceful. Just not lots of elk there. It really depends on what you want out of a hunt. Some want to see lots of elk and have lots of encounters and don’t care what the scenery is like. Others want scenery and some elk. My opinion is that the Bob is high on scenery and low on elk encounters. Doesn’t mean you won’t kill one, you just better take advantage of the first opportunity as it may be your only encounter. Line up a packer ahead of time to help pack one out if you are successful way back in the wilderness.

[WapitiTalk1]

In the fir what it’s worth department, I have never ran into another hunter in my spots in Idaho. It’s just a matter of hunting where nobody else is willing to go. Sure, there are other hunters in the general area, but they aren’t willing to go too deep or into the jungle.

[Tigger]

I remember Indian Summer's advice regarding bivi hunting. (Joe, correct me if I am wrong) If you KNOW there are elk there it is a great way to go. But if you bivi in and do NOT find elk, you have wasted 3-4 days of valuable hunting time. By staying mobile you keep your options open.

The question you have to ask yourself is this...where is the best place to sleep in order for me to kill an elk?

[VT Sasquatch]

Thanks for all of the info guys. I am off the idea of Montana. It doesn’t sound too feasible to do a backcountry trip solo and without horses. If I did manage to get an elk, I don't think I could pack it that kind of distance by myself. Taking several trips would be necessary and with a 7ish mile hike each way, those miles add up. In addition to the physical demands, it would take days for me to do it alone. I would worry about spoilage or a griz finding the meat cache. Hunting Montana might still be an option but I think I would either have to join a drop camp or forget the backcountry areas.

I am now beginning to research Idaho. It may be a good option. It seems that their OTC hunting is pretty straight forward. If I can't figure out an area in Idaho, I may go back to Colorado and hunt the same area I did in 2016. This time I would rather use a muzzleloader or standard rifle though.

Does anyone know if Colorado issues either sex muzzleloader tags in unit 421?

[snowbank]

It doesnt matter where you wish to hunt. Contact the area biologists with fish and game dept. They should know their areas, the elk herds, ground conditions, and access. They should know what the conditions are like at differant times of the season. Elk can move 20 miles over night with a falling temperature or deep snow or both. Elk may be high or low at the beginning of the season. Get USFS or BLM maps to learn access, road closures, and ownership. Once you have a selected an area pick up topographic quads memorize your area and possible trails. Get a good gps and the chip in it for ownership and topo. Your phone won't work if their is no cell coverage below the ridgetop. If you kill an elk -mark it with your gps. If you get 2 ft of snow overnight, you will never find your kill the next day let alone find your way in or out. Get a compass and an altimeter to cover your gps when it screws up cause it will. Wandering around in circles in a jungle in a blizzard is a memorable experience but only once. There are some pretty unforgivable places in the mountains that will eat you alive. Elk will take you for walk into some unforgiving places if you aren't paying attention. Flat landers die every year in Montana for lack of prep. I continue to be amazed at the number Minnesotans that come to Montana to snowmobile and die.

[saddlesore]

Does anyone know if Colorado issues either sex muzzle loader tags in unit 421?

.
No only bull or cow in 2019. Doubt there will be a change in 2020, Brochures should come out in February.
PM me then and I will check

[Lefty]

Thanks for all of the info guys. I am off the idea of Montana. It doesn’t sound too feasible to do a backcountry trip solo and without horses. ,,,,

I hope we didnt put you over the edge, just offering some awareness advise.

People in the back-country generally have a different understanding of the world

I still do a little shorter backpacking ( not hunting) . I go for the back-country experience and if that is an important part of your hunt,. hunt the way you want. Some guys might come after me on this,.. but maybe the meat shouldn't be the consuming concern.
In all my years and game we lost 60 lbs of neck meat on our first moose because I followed someones suggestion.We didnt get the whole hide off. My meat cutter said "everyone" losses the neck on their first moose no matter how cold

Where we were in Montana the local outfitter would pack out.
I have the phone number of a local outfitter, his wife and kids will pack out game

I had a local hunter haul my elk out of the thick cover he wanted the horses to have experience.
sometimes if you run into guys like me,.. Throw ( now 50lbs) on my pack and Ill leave it at your truck.
While I was hunting this fall I exchanged numbers with a fellow from California and one from Nevada If we made a kill to help each other. One fellow did make a kill and horseman packed out his elk.

[VT Sasquatch]

Thanks, Lefty. I like the idea of backcountry and hope to try it sometime but I think I will wait until I have someone else along so we can hire an outfitter to use for drop camp. For next year, I am thinking I will do something along the lines of what I did my first time. I’ll try an area with easier access. I am starting to look again at Colorado but first rifle or muzzleloader (I tried archery the last time). It is not easy figuring out how their tags work. I may look for something similar in Idaho too, and try to decide. I ordered an Idaho atlas to get an idea of where there might be access. Thanks for the help.

[saddlesore]

. I am starting to look again at Colorado but first rifle or muzzle loader (I tried archery the last time). It is not easy figuring out how their tags work.

I can help you with the tag application and most questions you have.

I assume all National forest have the same rule as they are all federal, but anyone packing someone else's game out can not accept any money,barter or trade for doing so.Only licensed outfitters can charge,. Pretty hefty fine for those unlicensed ones that get caught.Two years ago Forest Service fined a guy that charged other hunters $150 a trip to pack four quarters out on his back.

I am in the back country every year with my two mules I get asked 2-3 times a season to pack someone's elk out for some outrageous amount of money. They don't believe me when I tell them it is illegal for me and I won't do it for free. I even got a call from the FS this past year about if I helped friend of mine, who post here, pack in and if I charged him money . So before you even head out on the hunt, be absolutely sure how you aregig to get the meat out.

[VT Sasquatch]

Thanks, Saddlesore. When I went to Colorado, I hunted an OTC archery unit. I was on National Forest land and there were roads and ATV trails that made access pretty good. Obviously, that also meant ATVs and crowds. I set up camp by my truck and walked or took my ATV to a promising area and parked it and walked back. My thought was that if I was lucky enough to get an elk, I would quarter it and would only have to pack to the nearest trail. I was probably always within a couple miles of a trail, even if it was not where I parked. I did see a few elk but never got a shot opportunity. The only one that was within bow range was one I walked up on and it bolted. I am pretty sure it was a cow but the encounter was so quick it felt like a dream. It tool off down a ravine that I struggled to even walk down because of all the downed trees.

The only down side to the place that I hunted were the other people. I certainly would not say it was crowded by Eastern deer hunting standards but there were a good number of people around. Every morning before and after sunrise there were ATVs riding the trails. Virtually every pull off had a tent camp in it. I actually had some difficulty finding a place to set up camp. Once I got away from the trails, I did not see anyone.

I saw elk the first 3 days and then none the rest of the week. I think the hunting pressure may have pushed them into another area or into heavy cover (maybe that is just what whitetails do).

As far as the licenses, I see that some tags say leftover only. For example, a first season bull tag or muzzleloader cow tag were leftover only (going off of memory). I don't really understand what a leftover tag is or how likely they are to be available. Also, if there is no draw, what are they left over from?

A first season bull tag was a draw license (and maybe first season cow too). I do have 2 preference points so that might help. I would like to have the option of either sex if that is possible. I would feel very happy getting a cow but if I get into the field an have a bull in front of me, I'll be kicking myself if I only have a cow tag. This goes both ways.

Thanks for the help.

[saddlesore]

For elk only: For archery,there are draw only areas, Over The Counter areas. All can either be either sex or antlerless ( antlerless usually means antlers less than 6" . Antlered usually means 4 points or better or 3 with 6" brow tine.There are some units that does not apply like private land and special hunts.

For rifle ( elk) all 1st season tags are draw only, 2nd and 4rd season is OTC and 4th is draw. As before certain units don't apply. NR elk license last year,2019 was $661.75.

When applying in the draw,you can select to get a refund or a 2nd, 3rd,or 4th choice and/or select to participate in a leftover draw. 1st choice only uses your preference points, others don't. Each application cost a NR $9 and you must buy a Habitat Stamp ( $10) and Small Game license ($81.75) before applying. Application dead line is usually the first few days of April Small game and Habitat Stamp go on sale March 1. You will nee do go to the CPW website and set up a profile in order to participate in the draw.Do this early.DON"T WAIT. All applications are online only. Call them to get on the mailing list to receive the Big Game Brochure that comes out in February.

If you are not successful in the draw for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4thchouce and selected to participate in the left overdraw, you are sent a letter and you apply again. These are licenses that are leftover that hunters did not draw. After that on about Agust 4-6 or so . with list are were previously posted on the CPW web site abut 2 weeks before, all the remaining licenses that were not drawn in the 1st or 2nd draw, go on sale over the counter,by phone, or online .First come first served ( that is always cluster fXXX) . Unlimited Over The Counter licenses go on sale a few days later and in some years it was the same day.These can be bought any day up until t a season starts at any vendor, but you must go to a CPW office to buy one after the season starts.

Yep,unless you hunt wilderness ares or where vehicle travel is not permitted, you get over run. Generally any OTC unit is crowded now days.Any place you can drive to, expect company and lots of it.

[Lefty]

. I,,, I even got a call from the FS
if I helped friend of mine, .

I often wonder about some of the people at parks and forest service where and why they sometimes do and say what they do?

Had a gal call me from the FS in Wa state , who had given me a ticket for littering, damaging trees, and too many at a campsite with a group of scouts.
Earlier I had volunteered on an input survey where we camped , and how many.

She got the camp site all wrong. We were at the horse camp further away with out a limit
The trees had been marked for the past 90 years that "were damaged.
Then she went on about the littering ,, gal couldn't understand why boys scouts would be picking up trash in a wilderness area
The manager told me she was released from the FS

Had a FS worker send me a notice they were rescinding our water rights after some date in July. She was out the door with her personal supplies before the water-master was done chewing everyone out.

The two years later I was billed (fined) for water from our ditch flooding the FS road.
Evidently my ditch washed out , then blocked the road flooding it for 100 yards,,, Had a lot of fun with that, During the winter the beaver built up their dam

Each of the times a new flunky from the east thought they could help create their own policy and laws

I backpack the Wind Rivers; at one office the gal was telling a group there have never been grizzlies in the area a group was going into. Also the same area where I had been going and found 3 grizzle kills."Black bears just feeding on winter kill" I showed them a pic of griz crap,.. and griz tracks


Anyway like many jobs some just think they are a big dog in the tall grass

[Tigger]

[quote="snowbank"]. Get a good gps and the chip in it for ownership and topo. Your phone won't work if their is no cell coverage below the ridgetop."

Snowbank, your phone will work as a GPS without cell coverage. Been doing it for years as have most on this forum. I had a good GPS, but I only bring it along as a backup and exclusively use my phone with OnX for backcountry navigation. Give it a try and I bet you will ditch that GPS too!

[VT Sasquatch]

Thanks guys. That makes sense Saddlesore. I don’t remember having to pay for a small game license last time but I may be wrong.

I didn’t know onX works without service. I have it so I’ll give it a try. I do have a GPS unit to so I am covered on that.

[Swede]

Start hunting an area you can plan to hunt every season and get to know it and the animals. Going here, then there is a receipt for long term failure.
I wish I know what you can easily learn here on the forum and from other sources when I started hunting elk back in the early 1960s. Back then it was all trial and error with more error than anything else. Now you can leave home with a good map and game plan that will give you a five year head start over where I began.

[saddlesore]

Thanks guys. That makes sense Saddlesore. I don’t remember having to pay for a small game license last time but I may be wrong.

2019 was the1st year. Lot of things changed starting in 2019. All resident license went up, and now with the new legislation CPW can increase prices whenever they want with OUT going to the legislature and asking. Some nonresidents think the elk license cost didn't go up until they found out they had to plunk down $81 to even play and another $6 for the ability to even send in an application.

In 2019 it cost a nonresident $761 and some change to hunt elk in Colorado. .I don't think you have to pay the $81 small game license if you only buy OTC. The brochure is vague about that.

[VT Sasquatch]

That’s rough. So it probably cost nearly $100 for a preference point on a year where a non-resident is not going to hunt.

[saddlesore]

Yep CPW got more greedy and the democrat controlled state legislature and governor backed them.

Checked today. Any draws for big game requires a Qualifying License ( Small Game) even if applying for a preference point.
None required for any over the counter license.

[VT Sasquatch]

Thanks for all of the help. I decided that I am going to hunt Colorado like I did the last time but apply for first rifle with muzzleloader as a backup. If I don’t get drawn for either, I’ll probably go OTC 2nd rifle.

All of this research led me to a conclusion: I need to buy land out west. I used to have the attitude that I could just camp but ai think it would make sense to buy some land. I have a hunting property in Vermont that I could sell if necessary to come up with some money. I’ll probably have to do that to keep my wife happy. We have a camp in PA so the Vermont property gives me some variety and extra tags but I hunt the same species in both states. I think land in CO or MT would open a lot of new options for me.

[VT Sasquatch]

This is a hard decision but I spoke to a realtor today about selling my camp in Vermont. I want to find out what a realistic sale price might be. If it is high enough, I think I am going to do it. Life is short.

The thoughts that I am balancing are the fact that I have 130 acres in VT that have produced some good deer for me vs. my desire to hunt elk and other game only available out west. I will still have the opportunity to hunt deer near home (Pennsylvania). However, I can always hunt from a tent out west and 100 acres out there are not enough to hunt elk without spreading onto public land anyway. It is a tough call. If only I could stumble into $100k. I'll have to think this through but I will probably be starting a thread before long asking where I should buy land.

[Swede]

I hope it works out for you VT. Here in Oregon you would need 160 acres on the east side of the State in order to get a landowner tag. As an old fellow said some years ago "the landowner tag lets you know where the hunter had breakfast that morning, and that is all."

[saddlesore]

130-160aces for hunting elk is nothing unless back ed by national forest or BLM land or it is in winter forage areas. Elk cover160 acres in about 3 minutes

[Swede]

I agree Saddlesore. Unless the 160 acre piece is alfalfa adjoining good elk country, it is just a place to have breakfast before you drive off to a good hunting area with your landowner tag in hand.

[Indian Summer]

I’ve been through this entire thought process. I think you need to slow down. Maybe take a piece of paper, put a line down the middle, write pros above one column and cons above the other and start brainstorming.

Unless you’re a millionaire you aren’t going to buy land out west to do all of your hunting on. If you had a section of river bottom you could hunt deer there. Only a millionaire could landlock enough public to make it worth the investment. There’s nothing you can buy that I can’t get behind and if the adjacent properties are so big that they eliminate access yours will have to be huge too. You won’t find 10 or even 100 acres between two 100,000 acre ranches that gives you the advantage of getting behind them.

A small place to call home would be nice. You can store gear there. Go there in the summer to scout. You could use it as a home base to drive to places to hunt elk, mulies, or antelope. If that worth the investment to you I can understand that. But you can accomplish that with a storage unit and a camper while having a more mobile base camp. Just some things to think about. Now if you were talking Iowa.... or maybe even the right place in Ohio, I could see buying 100 acres. But out west it would just be something to look at not a happy hunting ground. Out there 5 acres to keep a few horses on would be the most that ever interested me.

[VT Sasquatch]

Thanks guys. You have given me a lot to think about.

[Swede]

Cabins need maintenance. My cousin goes to Alaska to help a friend maintain his cabin and other facilities, on some private property in the wild up there. It is a two week venture every year just to keep things fixed and livable.
Abandoned structures also have a tendency of attracting undesirable elements including thieves and vandals. That was part of the reason the Forest Service got rid of most of theirs in the 1960s. Some of these undesirables can be most difficult to deal with. I can take a person to the place where the sheriff and the F.S. Ranger had to plant one that just refused to leave a cabin he built on public land. That happened decades ago. I suppose today there would be a big investigation of the sheriff and Ranger. Back in those days they just got out their shovel.
A good tent from The Wall Tent Shop, set up near where you want to hunt is better than a cabin in the hills.

[Tigger]

I have hunting land here in MN. As tempting as it is to want to own land in the west, these guys and Swede are correct (one of the rare occurrences that Swede is on the correct side!! ). When you go out west, you want to hunt, not deal with your property. For giggles, I popped on to realtor.com and looked up land in some of the places I hunt. OHMYGOSH!!!!!!!! Like a bucket of cold water. I initially thought there was a typo, but no, the prices were that high.

Now if I had Swede's money that would be a different story. After spending it on women and wine...scratch that, I don't drink and I am married.....after going on a Sitka spending spree, I would buy a ranch in both Montana AND Wyoming for me and one in Idaho for the all Wapiti Talk members in good standing!

[saddlesore]

Years ago I looked at some land near my favorite hunting area. It wasn't going to be a great hunt on 40 acres but I would be close to where I hunt with in15 miles. Glad I didn't because the hunting changed and the elk all but disappeared . Now I hunt 200 miles away from there. I would have been stuck with it.

I have five acres here and can be anywhere in the state within 300miles, but I usually only travel 200 at most. I can keep two mules and graze them about 4months every year. It keeps me busy all year . Glad I don't have more.

[Swede]

There is one thing every intelligent person here knows: Swede is always right. There are a few that are a little slow to get it. I expect they will chime in now.

[VT Sasquatch]

Good points everyone. To my wife's relief, I am going to put the idea on hold for now and just focus on hunting in the fall.