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What would you do? Elk scenario!

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What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Tigger » 06 23, 2020 •  [Post 1]

Mid September
Archery
You and 2 buddies
Branch antlered or cow tag but all have decided to go for bulls

You are back at the ATV after a long morning hunting a mountain and planning the evening hunt. As one of your buddies is "taking care of business", you announce to your other buddy that you are going to glass up a herd. Sure enough, after a few minutes of glassing you find a herd of about 20 elk. Too far away to see if there are bulls (but you assume there are), you quick throw together an approach and off you go.

The herd is in a big meadow and feeding to the western edge of the meadow. At the western edge of the meadow is a thin (100 yards wide) strip of sparse dead timber. Wind is from the east. You are approaching from the southwest. the last 100 yards you are exposed to this thin strip of timber but there isn't much you can do. the elk are in the meadow on the other side, so you should be okay. Oh no!!! There is a cow looking at you from the middle of this thin strip. You stop and don't move a muscle. She watches you from 125 yards out. after about 10 minutes, a nice 6X6 bull makes an appearance. After 20 minutes, they drift back to the herd. You sneak into the northern part of the strip and start your assault on the meadow. your two buddies are out front when they both indicate there are cows ahead about 50 yards. they cannot move ahead any further. There are a few trees here and there. Both buddies are well concealed but it is too open to move without being picked out by the cows. You are about 30 yards behind them.

Your move....what would you do to dine on bull backstrap over the winter?

By the way, this is a true story. Ever word is actually as it happened up to this point.
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Swede » 06 23, 2020 •  [Post 2]

Here are my rambling thoughts: This situation has happened to me many times. It never has worked out. You can't call them as they can see your location and that cow is wise to you. You can't get close enough either. Maybe you can back out and start over by going to another location. Other than that, return to your ATVs and go have lunch. Is there a place to the west where you can expect them to show up in the late afternoon, or where they will bed down soon? That might be a place to ambush them. If the winds are steady from the east, that is encouraging. Can you get ahead of them and wait?
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Tigger » 06 23, 2020 •  [Post 3]

I forgot to mention that by the time this is unfolding it is getting pretty late in the evening. No chance to back out. The play is now or never. Steady east winds. I don't think they are going to continue to move to the west as most are in the meadow feeding. the cow that observed us (you) has disappeared into the herd a half hour or so ago.
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Trumkin the Dwarf » 06 23, 2020 •  [Post 4]

The only way I can imagine this working out is holding tight and praying for a break, honestly.
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Elkhunttoo » 06 23, 2020 •  [Post 5]

I read the scenario a few times trying to get it right.

If I understand right the cows are at 50 yards from the shooters and 80 yards from caller. We are not sure where the bull is at this point. You haven’t moved very much for the last 30 minutes so I assume the cows are grazing and not on super high alert. If that is possible for an elk :?:

Here is my swing at the curve ball

The goal is the bull. I feel like a cow call won’t bring the bull over and Could just alert the cows so that is out. A challenge bugle or some chuckles at this point might be enough to swing the bull to get to this edge of his cows for a shot. It also brings in a new bull that the herd bull isn’t used to so he might push cows out of here 100 mph or he “MIGHT”come over for a fight. But I’m going with this one... if I’m the caller and can conceal myself enough (which shouldn’t take to much) I’m going to start by raking. By raking the bull cannot identify me so he might think I’m one of the pesky satellite bulls he has been keeping at bay the last week and figure he better come on over to this edge of his cows to check things out. It makes him think another bull is in the area displaying for he cows and I can’t see where he would like that.

Tell me I’m wrong :P
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Swede » 06 23, 2020 •  [Post 6]

Elkhunttoo: If you have enough cover, I think you are right. I wasn't reading it that way, but I am not sure. If the elk can see where you are, then don't make any noise. If you have good cover and they must get close to check out the strange bull raking could be just the ticket.
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Tigger » 06 23, 2020 •  [Post 7]

You understood the scenario perfectly. I will let it play out a little longer and get some more opinions on what to do before I say what happened. Really would like to hear Paul (Elknut) chime in.
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 06 23, 2020 •  [Post 8]

Way, way too much "open" for my liking. I wouldn't know what to do if I could see for 100 yards where I hunt elk, let alone see elk in a huge meadow :D. Seriously, if I can't get a solo stalk/crawl into the direction they're heading (cover/thermals permitting) right now, I'm outa there and back in the morning. They will be in the general area after their nighttime feed come the next morning if they're not busted. Curious, had you heard any elk chatter up to this point in this hunt?
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Elkslayer » 06 23, 2020 •  [Post 9]

I have never hunted with any one before. but as solo hunter I have had this scenario many times. that's why I bought the app to fix this kind of situation . Az has half the forest burnt down and trees are at a premium New aspens are now helping fix this problem. But I have learned a lot standing for 30 mins watching elk. How the bulls go from cow to cow sniffing and glunking. Not knowing what the sound made meant.
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Tigger » 06 24, 2020 •  [Post 10]

RJ, Yes, we could hear a little cow talk from time to time.

The way the country lies, there are scattered pieces of timber (big to little) all over in this area. We had been hunting this area for 3-4 days and although the herd would be in the general area, finding them would be hard. Time is now. Gotta do something. What ya gonna do? :?:
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Swede » 06 24, 2020 •  [Post 11]

Tigger wrote: we could hear a little cow talk from time to time.


That only tells us your hearing is not too bad as cows mew everywhere they go keeping track of one another, and keeping their calves nearby. :D
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Indian Summer » 06 24, 2020 •  [Post 12]

You have an ATV but no spotting scope. Huh :lol:
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Tigger » 06 24, 2020 •  [Post 13]

I have a spotting scope but didn't have it along on this voyage! We didn't expect to be glassing as it was all timber where we were going to be hunting. Left it at camp. Wouldn't have made a difference as I knew there was gonna be a bull in the herd.
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Tigger » 06 26, 2020 •  [Post 14]

Elkhunttoo,
You and I thought alike. And it didn't work. I started some raking and the whole mountain exploded with a thundering herd of elk headed for parts unknown. One of my buddies said it was a cow who started the stampede, the other said it was the bull, so we will never know who I triggered, but I certainly rained on some elk's parade!

Still makes me scratch my head. Hopefully Paul will jump in with what I did wrong!
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Elkhunttoo » 06 26, 2020 •  [Post 15]

Honestly not sure if I would of thought of that at the time. Sitting on my couch it seemed like a good idea and I figured the least harm... my wife would jump in right here and tell you how I was wrong in my thoughts :D
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Elkhunttoo » 07 03, 2020 •  [Post 16]

I’m still wondering why the elk charged out of there. Maybe a small soft bugle or chuckles before the raking let’s them know it is an elk. Idk elk are spooky animals anyway and maybe instead of thinking “bull raking tree” like me as a hunter thinks I’m telling them. they went “herd of elephants, RUN!!!” I’m with tigger, I want to hear some other thoughts on this?
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Swede » 07 03, 2020 •  [Post 17]

Here is my take on why the elk crashed out of there.
1. One or more scented you or your buddy. I know it was said the wind was from the east and the hunter/caller were southwest, but the wind can briefly shift. It happens all the time.
2. One or more saw you or your buddy. It does not take much movement at the wrong time and you are busted.
3. The bull or lead cow took them out because they believed there was unwanted competition for the cows.
4. This is the least likely: Some other preditor caused them to run off.

I doubt they left just because they did not like you raking the tree.
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby rvanbw00 » 07 09, 2020 •  [Post 18]

I agree with Swede. The story started mid afternoon and seemed to end late afternoon/evening. Had you noticed any thermals switching, or even the air stagnating enough to drift your stink the elk's direction? Did you notice any any of the elk getting nervous prior to them sprinting off? It could have been a combination of factors (slight wind drift causing suspicion which was then heightened by the raking?).
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby ElkNut1 » 07 09, 2020 •  [Post 19]

Elkhuntoo is 100% spot on!

Elk are constantly in a survival mode, anything out of the ordinary can send them packing real quick. Using any type of elk sound first then raking is the key here, that way they know the sounds they are hearing are elk related not a predator! I love raking for elk in nearly every bull encounter at some time or another but I'm careful not to start with raking first! I've sent my share of elk/bulls packing because of this very thing! We as hunters want elk to think we are a bull raking & that's that! Most elk do not think that way like we want them too. Next time lay a foundation before raking & you'll experience different results!

p.s. I'm not saying once in a blue moon raking First hasn't produced, I'm saying your odds are not good if you Start with it in most encounters!

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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Tigger » 07 09, 2020 •  [Post 20]

Thanks Paul. I was wondering what the heck the deal was. It was big time grizzly country so the predator angle makes sense.

We had a good constant wind, I really dont think it was wind. they werent nervous, the timing was too perfect to the raking and the center of the herd blew out first led by either 1 cow or the bull.
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Swede » 07 09, 2020 •  [Post 21]

[quote="ElkNut1" Elk are constantly in a survival mode, anything out of the ordinary can send them packing real quick. Using any type of elk sound first then raking is the key here, that way they know the sounds they are hearing are elk related not a predator! ElkNut/Paul[/quote]

That is interesting as I have come upon bulls raking several times over the years and had heard no bugle or other voice call. It has been my understanding that raking is a form of displaying. It is a form of showing off for the girls. If the elk left because of another elk raking, then they just did not want an intruder with them and the competition.
The only predator besides man that I know of that rakes is a bear. I have heard a bear trashing a log, but not scratching a mark on a tree. I have watched a cougar scratch, but it is hard to hear and it does not sound like raking.
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby 7mmfan » 07 09, 2020 •  [Post 22]

Swede wrote:
ElkNut1 wrote: Elk are constantly in a survival mode, anything out of the ordinary can send them packing real quick. Using any type of elk sound first then raking is the key here, that way they know the sounds they are hearing are elk related not a predator! ElkNut/Paul


That is interesting as I have come upon bulls raking several times over the years and had heard no bugle or other voice call. It has been my understanding that raking is a form of displaying. It is a form of showing off for the girls. If the elk left because of another elk raking, then they just did not want an intruder with them and the competition.
The only predator besides man that I know of that rakes is a bear. I have heard a bear trashing a log, but not scratching a mark on a tree. I have watched a cougar scratch, but it is hard to hear and it does not sound like raking.



I think we sometimes underscore the situational awareness that these animals have. I believe that a herd of elk generally knows how many are there, what they sound like, what they smell like. If a bull within the group starts raking, my guess is they are aware of which animal it is based on location. If suddenly, some aggressive raking comes from outside the herds invisible bubble, unannounced, there will be immediate suspicion, especially if the herd has been pressured in anyway recently. A close in unsolicited bugle may have as well. A cow call probably would have been the safest way to initiate communication with the herd, and then follow with raking. Maybe a chuckle or muffled bugle facing the opposite direction.
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Swede » 07 09, 2020 •  [Post 23]

My observation goes along with what 7mm wrote above. I don't disagree with Paul's observation. That is his experience. I just find it odd that bugling first puts a herd at ease so they will accept the raking later.
Years ago in a conversation, Paul advised me, that he would splash the water, rake awhile at the tree stand location then bugle. Then he would hurry up the tree. I tried it in just that order and lo and behold it worked. One afternoon my son and I both got a bull after I tried that stunt. I added that to the tree stand book, as it has worked other times that way also. What I have learned about doing this near my tree stand is, the hunter needs to be very careful in where they do the follow-up raking and bugling. The elk may come in a hang up out of range if they can see where you were just before you went quiet. If you have some cover nearby, use it so the critter must come close to really investigate. It is just like other calling; set up is critical. Also note it often takes an hour or more for the elk to come around. That was a surprise, as I expected them sooner, but they are not operating on my schedule.
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby 7mmfan » 07 09, 2020 •  [Post 24]

An animals ability to pinpoint the location of a sound at distance in cover is unreal to me. But they're lives depend on it and they do it all the time.
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Swede » 07 09, 2020 •  [Post 25]

I have had bulls come and pinpoint my location after walking in for over 1/4 mile, but I am wondering what your point is on that?
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Elkhunttoo » 07 09, 2020 •  [Post 26]

Every situation and every call in is different. I think when Paul is saying bugle/elk sounds before you rake He is just pertaining to this situations or something like it. But, as we all know the bugle (elk sound you choose) if it isn’t exactly what the elk want to hear at that time can blow them out of there too. If elk aren’t so close I think it pans out different but thinking about how alert/spooky they can be it makes since to me now that any braking that close to them would put them running.

I called a bull in a few years ago and watched him spook 4-5 times as he was walking by the edge of the timber on his way up. This bull would of been the worst horse to ever try and ride in the mountains.
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby 7mmfan » 07 09, 2020 •  [Post 27]

Swede wrote:I have had bulls come and pinpoint my location after walking in for over 1/4 mile, but I am wondering what your point is on that?


Just that Swede, they can pinpoint exact locations from remarkable distances.
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Elkhunttoo » 07 09, 2020 •  [Post 28]

7mmfan wrote:
Swede wrote:I have had bulls come and pinpoint my location after walking in for over 1/4 mile, but I am wondering what your point is on that?


Just that Swede, they can pinpoint exact locations from remarkable distances.


This is maybe the number 1 thing my wife was and still is amazed at when calling elk. I told her this when She started hunting with me But as with most things she didn’t believe me until she saw it herself
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Swede » 07 09, 2020 •  [Post 29]

I agree with what you are saying and have observed it myself. Elk can scent you for over 100 yards away, but how does this intersect with the thread or the discussion we were having? Ok, elk have a split hoof and chew the cud so they would be kosher to eat. :D I like my last part the best as we get ready for hunting season.
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby 7mmfan » 07 09, 2020 •  [Post 30]

Sorry I wasn't clear on the tie in. I was referring to your note about what Paul said and how you had to be careful about where you called and raked from before getting in your tree stand. Their ability to pinpoint location from a distance and then plan an approach makes your setup oh so important.
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Swede » 07 09, 2020 •  [Post 31]

I get it. Sometimes I am a little slow. Maybe everyone else understood. Thanks for the clarification.
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby Tigger » 07 10, 2020 •  [Post 32]

Sometimes? :lol:

I think the cow that saw us earlier may have been the key. She was probably still a little panicky and when she heard something, even though it was a different area, she lost her cool. If I would have made an elky sound first, that might have calmed her. Damn cows.
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Re: What would you do? Elk scenario!

Postby ElkNut1 » 07 10, 2020 •  [Post 33]

Disagree!

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