what was this elk saying?

[whitingja]

So as I was hunting last season and I ran into a couple situations that still have me thinking. I would hear bulls that were by themselves, with no apparent other bulls or cows around bugling, then chuckle, as if calling cows over. I would then reply with cow calls, but they were not interested. What were they saying. I thought a chuckle was a way bulls would call to cows to come in. Will bulls just chuckle for the heck of it, or can they use chuckles for challenging other bulls and advertising? Why would they Bugle and chuckle, but be almost intimidated by cow calls. I think my cow calling is fairly good, so I don't think I suck so bad I am scaring them away. Please help.

[JohnFitzgerald]

How far away were the bulls? Time of year? Are you sure these bulls were alone? In your opinion, were these chuckles loud or were they software?

I doubt your calling was a negative factor.

[Swede]

I suspect you were not hearing chuckles but rather grunts. They are used to intimidate other bulls. Grunts are not to call cows. That is also probably why they were not interested in you.
After reading he first post again, I see I may have misread it a little. You could have heard an advertising bugle that included chuckles. Also, is it possible you were hearing another hunter who could not hear your softer cow calls?

[>>>---WW---->]

It is really hard to say without actually hearing what went on. But if he was truly chuckling to you and you responded with cow mews there are some things to think about.

He may have been trying to get you to come to him. And if you only mewed and didn't head in his direction he probably just thought the heck with ya! A trick that might have turned things back in your favor would be to give him a reason why you couldn't come by maybe giving just a little bit of bull talk giving him the impression that a small bull was holding you up.

One thing to remember about elk is that they don't think like we do. They don't have that ability. Instead of thinking, you have to make them react to the situation at hand.

Am I close to assuming right on what happened or am I way off base. It's just hard to answer questions like yours without hearing or seeing what went on.

[whitingja]

Thanks for the responses guys. I think they were alone, but maybe smelt other bulls nearby? Definitely chuckles, ape like, not grunts, and loud. I know it's hard to know without hearing. I went and read some posts, and there was a dicussion about chuckles being used for advertisement. Probably pressuring the bull would have been the best approach. Maybe next time. He will be there again this year...I hope.

[JohnFitzgerald]

I agree with Bill(aka >>---WW---->). That's what I wanted to post but didn't have enough time before baseball practice.

Without knowing a lot more details, it would be hard to guess what he meant. But it sounds like a pre-rut bull that was trying to get his herd a little tighter. Not every elk sound can be stereotyped to a situation. Example, "The bull chuckled so he must be trying to draw in a cow to his herd." Instead, make sure you understand the definition of the sound. When a bull chuckles it means "come to me". He could be talking to his cows that have spread out to far, wanting to gather his herd back together to move on, or trying to draw a new cow his way. Situation, time of year, and accompanying sounds denotes the true meaning.

Just my 2-Cents!

[WapitiTalk1]

Agree with WW, JF, also. The bull was most likely calling cows to him. I suspect it was when the bull, or bulls, remembering you mentioned this occurred in a few situations for you last year, were possibly moving with cows to bed if you were hunting early morning (right after daybreak up to a few hours after) or moving to feed if you encountered these activities shortly before nightfall. Chuckles are bulls calling cows to them... period.. They do this in a static herd setting (stalled in one place) when the cows are moving a bit too far out of their comfort/visual zone, when moving along their moving to feed/bed patterns, or certainly when they hear a wayfaring cow (you) emitting some sweet cow sounds in their direction responding to their chuckles. As WW mentioned, if you responded to the chuckles with cow sounds from "a distance" and the group was in fact on the move, the bull would probably not have left the herding/transition mission at hand to come see you (after all, he's following his harem).. He would most likely continue to move with his group towards the pre-determined bed/feed area. If you hear a bull chuckling back to your cow calls, it's the time to give him what he's asking for, your presence! Move towards the bull, either in an intercept path, or on the same elevation if the group seems close to where they're going (close to feed or bed) before you make another peep. Then, it's time to up the odds in your favor a bit and light the old boy up with level two or three of the threat (I've got one of your cows mister, and I'm taking her with me!!)...

[ElkNut1]

Jason, how do you know the bulls were by themselves? How do you know they ran off?

ElkNut1

[whitingja]

Elknut, I guess its hard to be certain. I saw him in a large meadow alone, and when I called, he wandered off. It is possible he was hearing bugles or cow calls I could not hear. So from what I am reading, chuckles always means calling to cows? And if this is the case, I need to be more aggressive and move in on them, terrain permitting? Thanks again guys. I am learing so much. Oh, one more thing. I had a bull responding to my bugle and chuckles, but he was not too excited, but then I let out a lip bawl, and he came running. Why was this? Was he thinking I was leading my cows off and wanted to catch me before I did?

[Swede]

Jason: It is hard to be dogmatic as there are several possibilities. As we get more of the picture, I am inclined to believe the bull you saw had cows that he returned to. He was trying to call you, believing you were a cow, with that bugle with chuckles. When you did not come, he returned to his cows. Your lip bawl bugle was perceived as you trying to call his cows. I do not think you were close enough to present a real threat, so he backed away with his harem.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Generally, my rule of thumb is if you can clearly see the bull you don't want to call. If a bull looks at the source and doesn't see what he expects, it could mean game over. Not saying that's what happend but knowledge for future reference.

jf

[ElkNut1]

Jason, there are many reasons either Bulls & Cows will vocalize, they do this in & out of the rut. Bulls do not only chuckle to draw cows to them, chuckling is simply a means of saying "come on over" or " get over here" in more demanding tones.This can apply to any elk not just a cow! --- Giving a few cow sounds because you heard a bugle or see a bull does not mean these elk are going to come over to you, you've simply given sounds as far as they are concerned that there's a cow over there. All bulls do not come running to cow calls as on TV. In many instances bulls couldn't care less about cows, it's all depending on hot cows or not. The bulls you saw or heard could've been around unseen cows by you for a week or more but they don't go running over their way if a cow sound is heard & they're the real deal.

As the rut picks up momentum bulls start feeling their oats & testosterone levels are running high, this can incite bulls to start feeling restless & announcing their presence vocally but not actually calling elk their way, it's a form of advertisement that all bulls go through in one way or another. It's quite possible this is what you experienced?

Now if you were to imitate a breeding sequence from an unseen position 100yd-300yds away with a good setup now you have something that can peak their curiosity. Too, with the same good setup you can draw once again on a bulls curiosity with a good advertising sequence of your own as if a new bull is entering the area & he wants all to know.

ElkNut1

[Fullabull]

Elknut, agree completely I have had many instances where a bull answers my bugle with a bugle and chuckles. Question, how should a breeding sequence go (sound like). That is a great plan!

[cnelk]

Generally, my rule of thumb is if you can clearly see the bull you don't want to call. If a bull looks at the source and doesn't see what he expects, it could mean game over.

jf

Mine too

[Da White Shoe]

Generally, my rule of thumb is if you can clearly see the bull you don't want to call. If a bull looks at the source and doesn't see what he expects, it could mean game over.

jf

Mine too

I'm not sure that I understand why you guys feel this way... unless the bull is inside bow range.
I have no fear of calling to a bull I can plainly see... if he's outside of bow range.
I feel like.... if I can see the animal that I'm trying to call in, no matter if it's an elk, deer, turkey, coyote or duck... I can better gauge what to do next.
It's a given that you can't try it from sparse cover and, as always, I throw my call as best I can... to keep from being pinpointed.

[Swede]

I will let cnelk and John f. speak for themselves, but my observation is that if I can see the bull, that I want to lure my way, he can see where I am. If he does not see the elk he thinks he should, he knows something is wrong. The bull hangs up, paces back and forth a couple times, then leaves. As he paces he is trying to see the elk that called to him. He soon knows something is not right.

[JohnFitzgerald]

I will let cnelk and John f. speak for themselves, but my observation is that if I can see the bull, that I want to lure my way, he can see where I am. If he does not see the elk he thinks he should, he knows something is wrong. The bull hangs up, paces back and forth a couple times, then leaves. As he paces he is trying to see the elk that called to him. He soon knows something is not right.

+1 Swede.

[Da White Shoe]

I will let cnelk and John f. speak for themselves, but my observation is that if I can see the bull, that I want to lure my way, he can see where I am. If he does not see the elk he thinks he should, he knows something is wrong. The bull hangs up, paces back and forth a couple times, then leaves. As he paces he is trying to see the elk that called to him. He soon knows something is not right.

I think we're all on the same page here, really.
Common mistakes...
1. calling from thin cover
2. calling from the very edge of cover
3. calling directly at the animal
4. calling when they're already moving toward you
5. calling from too close a distance to the animal

I feel like I've developed a pretty good sense of what I can and can't get away with in these situation....
but It was gained from the many mistakes I made years ago.

I bet you guys feel the same way.

[ElkNut1]

Guys calling from sparse cover or an area where elk can look over & see nothing creates more problems than bulls called in! As some have mentioned it's a good rule of thumb to consider. When an elk can look over even though you feel hid they can become very suspicious why they do not see another elk, in some cases they try to call you out of the cover to get a visual, when this elk does not show they can leave because of this suspicious nature.

Guys call, elk leave then they feel maybe it was their calling or the calls of use, in fact it's not that at all, the situation wasn't a desirable one to use calling.

An elk party or breeding sequence is imitating just that! Most of us have been in encounters where bulls were bugling & cows are talking in chaotic fashion, this generally stems from a hot cow or multiple hot cows nearby. With lots of cow talk & various tones & volumes injected along with one or two bulls competing for these cows can really draw elk over to you, if 150yds or more away from a herd bull & his cows you are likely to draw the satellite bulls first as they are the most curious & free ranging because they have no cows of their own but fooling them into thinking breeding may be close they come eagerly to investigate. These encounters draw us hunters right to elk when this is happening, likewise elk do the same. We call in lots of elk with this technique! Your SETUP must be good!!!!! Tight cover where elk must come into bowrange to investigate is crucial here or oncoming elk will hang-up, don't give them that luxury!!

ElkNut1