Round Robin Q&A, Elknut Style

[WapitiTalk1]

All right campers, thought we could try something new. Ask a question (any question) related to elk hunting and get an answer. Let's have some ground rules for this thread. I'm thinking something like this:

1. The question can come from anyone but preferably, a elk hunter that doesn't have a ton of experience under their belts yet. Kind of targeting folks who may have a specific question that they've been pondering but haven't asked yet or started a full blown thread on.

2. The answers can come from anyone who has an opinion, or, experience with the question or topic.

3. Let's try to keep the answers to three for each question so we can keep it rolling. Let's try not to move on to the next question until the previous one has received the afore mentioned "three" answers.

4. At any time, an Elknut may chime in and say "this is worthy of a full blown thread" and start said thread.

Let's see how this pans out... who's first? RJ

[LckyTylr]

At what point in the Fall do the bulls change their patterns for the following? I'm assuming the answers will be different for young or satellite bulls vs. herd bulls . . . ?

Break up their bachelor groups.

Tend a harem.

Break away from the cows and form bachelor groups again.

[Swede]

The break up of bachelor groups appears to happen as soon as the bulls rub off their velvet and begin sparing. That takes place around mid/late August.

Tending of harems occurs later in mid September when cows are nearing estrus and the dominant bulls have taken over. That is also the time they have all left public land and are hiding out on ranches where bow hunters can't get to them in the area where I hunt. That is the time when I just pray one will forget about the sanctuary of the ranch and cross back onto Forest Service land for a little while.

Mid October. This takes place just in time for the big bulls to find great cover away from the rifle hunters.

[wawhitey]

swede.... ever the optimist!

[WapitiTalk1]

Anyone else? Seems like Swede hit the answer on the head with this first question and nobody else offered their opinion. I would say that IMO the bulls perhaps go as far as into the snowy month of November before they pull off into their bachelor groups. They seem to stay high up the slope, in proximity of the cows, until the snows finally force the herd's down the mountains to wintering range. Seems that they move as a group, once the belly snow forces this, and, after the boom sticks have stopped barking. That's when it seems to me that the bulls start pulling away a bit more. All is out the window though where feeding stations exist as the bulls are more reluctant to back off into their dude groups as long as free chow is being offered. Just my meager thoughts.

Next rapid fire, round robin question please. RJ

[LckyTylr]

Fine, I'll go again.

Sneaking into a good "1st Calling Location" of the morning and a bull bugles below you (maybe 300 yards). You hear a few cows softly mewing (herd talk). It's still 15 minutes before legal shooting light, scene is timber, potential 35 or 40 yard shots if the stars align. Bull did NOT bugle at you, doesn't know you are there. You are sure that they will be working their way down the draw to get water mid morning. You have dogged this herd down to water before and they cross a saddle on the ridge that you are on.

What do you do? Do you run like hell down to the saddle and call? Do you just get to the saddle and wait for them to meander past (hopefully). Do you get on the level with them and flank them until legal shooting light and then draw him sidehill to you?

It seems like I end up in this situation every year and I never play my cards right . . . or I find the luckiest elk on the planet (I doubt that).

[montanabrown]

If you can get into their travel corridor without being winded sitting and waiting would be what id do. No point of letting them know something else is on the mountain if you don't have to. Gives you more of a chance also if you end up dogging them if you stay silent.

[Swede]

If you know they will be crossing the saddle soon, get to where you can get a shot and not be detected. As montanabrown wrote, there is no use letting a bull with cows think another bull is around if you just want to intercept them. That would sure cause him to take his cows somewhere else.

[POk3s]

I agree. Just get to that saddle and wait it out. Not to mention if you've found this saddle and know that one group of elk is using it there are certainly others that are using it.

I don't know if this is within the rules of this thread but just adding to the last question, the 2 1/2 year old bulls love to be with the cows "too early" and "too late" Those little 2 1/2 year old bulls are the ones that will be with the cows late august until they get kicked out by a big boy and also will be with the cows after mid October when the herd bulls head to the deepest, darkest, nastiest blowdown canyons they can find.

[WapitiTalk1]

Good question and good answers across the board gentlemen (just watch those thermals when hunting from high to low early in the morning in the Rockies). Next?

[pd]

This is my kind of thread. From a previous answer:

Those little 2 1/2 year old bulls are the ones that will be with the cows late august until they get kicked out by a big boy and also will be with the cows after mid October when the herd bulls head to the deepest, darkest, nastiest blowdown canyons they can find.

I am a rifle hunter, and our season is the first two weeks of November. I am scouting a new territory this year, full of the very worst blow downs ever created. Nearly virgin forest, very tall "fir" trees (taxonomically, pines, but who is counting). The biggest problem is the pack out.

My question is the behavior of bulls, whether "herd" class or just Boy Scouts. Snow won't fly until December, so the bulls will have an opportunity to feed up high late into the year. Where will they be? Deep in the jungle? Alone again, or back into the bachelor groups? Also, is there any chance of breeding in the first weeks of November?

[Swede]

pok3 and phantom16 made a couple good observations. There are very few absolutes with wildlife, and that sure goes for elk. I have seen lone cows year round and bulls with cows almost as long. What we are describing are generalities. I have seen 150 elk moving in late August. There were a couple knot heads and one good bull with them. Bulls and cows may be together on the winter range. I do not remember any bulls being with cows that had new born calves. Bulls and cows congregated on the winter range is a totally different matter when compared to what is going on in September. They have a totally different attitude.

Pd I calculate there could be a little breeding going on as late as you mentioned. I have not seen it, but I have had bulls respond to a bugle that late. Where will the bulls be? That is the $64,000 question. If I could answer that I would have my own web site and charge you just to log in. The best general answer is get away from people and roads, and look for fresh sign. Heavy cover is a good place to start, but don't forget to check other good habitat as they still feed. good luck.

[ElkNut1]

Tyler, to your first set of questions.

# -1---Bulls start the process of leaving the bachelor groups 3rd to 4th week in Aug. for those that leave & seek out cow groups. There are bachelor groups that do not split up at all they stay with the group the entire time of rutting phases. Sure they want cows too but are not of dominant quality. Then there are bachelor groups that can be formed & added to as Sept & Oct continues through the rut phases.

# - 2-- Bulls will tend a harem in this 3rd to 4th week of Aug & on, in many instances it's younger bulls that get there first but will find difficulty holding on to their harems as cows enter estrus, bigger more mature bulls can cast them aside as cows choose the more dominant ones.

# -3 -- This process starts aprox the latter part of Oct. At this time many herd bulls are flat worn out and move off to recuperate to build up their strength to survive the oncoming winter, it doesn't matter if a cow comes in in the 4th cycle in Nov. many of these herd bulls are trashed & must move away from the herds as they have little fight left in them.

ElkNut1

[Garrett Drach]

Once you have a bull's location pinpointed and you plan to move in for the final setup, do you approach the bull from above, below or at the same elevation? (For discussion's sake lets assume the wind isn't a issue). And does your approach depend on the scenario (e.g. a herd bull with cows that you plan to cow call vs. a herd bull with cows that you plan to challenge?

Garrett

[elkmtngear]

Garrett,

Unfortunately, I find that the wind is always an issue, so I'm stuck using whatever contours I can to approach as the wind allows.

That being said, ideally, I like to be on the same level as the bull, or close if possible. But regardless of the scenario (lone bull or bull with cows), the wind will dictate my approach.

[Swede]

Regarding Paul's second point about bulls tending cows the third and forth week of August. As I mentioned above I too have seen bulls with cows then, but are they tending them? I doubt it for the most part. Usually when I see a herd of cows through the first week of September, it is a spike or two, or maybe some little rag horn. I have often had them come into the water hole where I had a good selection from cows or up to two spikes. It sure seems to me they are just tagging along, waiting for the master to send them away, rather than doing any tending. I know there are exceptions, as a few cows may come into estrus early, but there are also a few untended cows still out there on the last week of September.

[Vanish]

I never know "when" to cold call. I've never had any luck with it. I've been in an area, found sign, and set up, with no results (and yes, I wait!)

What situation do you find in the elk woods where you say to yourself ... now THIS is the time/place to cold call.

[Vanish]

Regarding Paul's second point about bulls tending cows the third and forth week of August. As I mentioned above I too have seen bulls with cows then, but are they tending them? I doubt it for the most part.

I am betting its more region specific than being able to state "X happens at Y time" across the whole nation. I haven't seen the bigger bulls with cows until nearing the end of September where I hunt.

[Swede]

Vanish you make a good point. I brought up the subject to try to start a conversation. Even though I hunt in Oregon and Paul hunts Idaho, we are fairly close. It could be we are just observing different things, or there could be other factors causing a difference.

[WapitiTalk1]

I never know "when" to cold call. I've never had any luck with it. I've been in an area, found sign, and set up, with no results (and yes, I wait!) What situation do you find in the elk woods where you say to yourself ... now THIS is the time/place to cold call.

Cold calling can be used anytime during the fall rut, but, seems to prove more practical/effective for me during the early part of the season. Later in the season, as the bulls respond to locator bugles more freely, or, are sounding off on their own, cold calling is not really necessary . Best time/place for cold calling? Earlier in the season (first few weeks of SEP) early/mid morning and late afternoon/early evening when elk are more likely to be on the move although it's certainly possible to pull an elk out of their bedding area if close enough (not my cup of tea though). I try to do cold calling setups in relatively close proximity to known travel routes, and, in timbered or brushy areas for cover/concealment purposes (stay away from very open areas as it stands against the caller in battle). Pre- determined shooting lanes are a must when selecting a cold calling location. Many times, they will and do come in silent so one must be alert and as you mentioned, very patient. Just my thoughts

[>>>---WW---->]

Regarding Paul's second point about bulls tending cows the third and forth week of August. As I mentioned above I too have seen bulls with cows then, but are they tending them? I doubt it for the most part. Usually when I see a herd of cows through the first week of September, it is a spike or two, or maybe some little rag horn. I have often had them come into the water hole where I had a good selection from cows or up to two spikes. It sure seems to me they are just tagging along, waiting for the master to send them away, rather than doing any tending. I know there are exceptions, as a few cows may come into estrus early, but there are also a few untended cows still out there on the last week of September.

I think Swede is right on. Spikes and raghorns can be with the cows in August. But that doesn't necessarily mean they are tending. Most of them are just youngsters that haven't left Mama yet.

In reality, it is the lead cow who determines when a breeding bull will be allowed into the herd. She has been the herd leader from basically November until the next September. And she isn't willing to give up that leadership easily. Especially not to some punk kid of a bull.

[Trophyhill]

Once you have a bull's location pinpointed and you plan to move in for the final setup, do you approach the bull from above, below or at the same elevation? (For discussion's sake lets assume the wind isn't a issue). And does your approach depend on the scenario (e.g. a herd bull with cows that you plan to cow call vs. a herd bull with cows that you plan to challenge?

Garrett

I have failed miserably in this scenario multiple times. That being said I've done some things exceptional. This goes to show that you can do almost everything right but the little things are just as important. So I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say get as close as possible even if that means splitting the herd and learn to "read" the situation and be ready to act without over thinking (as I have done). Don't be afraid to take risks. and at some point all the pieces will fall into place. This from a solo hunters semi rookie point of view.

[POk3s]

I never know "when" to cold call. I've never had any luck with it. I've been in an area, found sign, and set up, with no results (and yes, I wait!)

What situation do you find in the elk woods where you say to yourself ... now THIS is the time/place to cold call.

In adding to Phantom's answer yes it may be more productive to cold call earlier in the season when bulls are actively trying to find a group of cows. Paul goes over it in his "Worse than Wolves" DVD that when you add a few immature sounding bugles in with your cow sounds it will drive the big bulls crazy.....and obviously he is THE Elknut and is right on.

Secondly I will add that I like to cold call before I walk through what I think might be a bedding area. Last year I had a bedding area right behind where I was camped. It was actually a more southern facing slope but I had seen elk walk into there midmorning and it stayed very cool. Before I walked in there to get back to my spike camp I decided I would do a little blind calling. Sure enough right after I got to "phase 2" and let out an immature sounding bugle, a bull popped out of the trees and was met by my arrow. After standing up and walking over to my bull I heard the thunder of hooves from behind me. Never saw the elk but I actually called in two bulls in that setup.

So I guess to sum of all that up, before you go walking through a timbered area you know or that your "spidey senses" tell you has elk, go ahead and try a little bit of a cold calling sequence and see what happens.

[elkaholic]

Regarding Paul's second point about bulls tending cows the third and forth week of August. As I mentioned above I too have seen bulls with cows then, but are they tending them? I doubt it for the most part.

I am betting its more region specific than being able to state "X happens at Y time" across the whole nation. I haven't seen the bigger bulls with cows until nearing the end of September where I hunt.

Totally agree with the region specific. Believe it or not in early Nov. I have been in elk where the bulls were still bugling and bunched up. Most likely a cow coming into estrus late?? I could be wrong but seems like I heard Elknut say that cows cycle at different times on his Worse than Wolves DVD.

[NCelkhtr]

Its the first 2 weeks of bow season and you are going to set up on something mid day close to bedding, what is better water hole or a wallow? do you call or sit silent?

Zack

[cnelk]

I would be sitting silent and listening near either of them
You can hear a bugle, maybe some splashing, or tree thrashing.
Then make your move.

Midday is a good time to re-charge those legs and lungs

[ElkNut1]

WW, you keep taking things out of context from my posts, you need to take a look at the whole picture! Tending cows does not constitute breeding! It just means they are a part of the group for that time period!

ElkNut1

[Swede]

Tending cows does not constitute breeding! It just means they are a part of the group for that time period!

It is always good to have a common understanding of the terms we us. I thought "tending" referred to the period of time bulls are with cows, from when the cows were actually gathered, until the bulls left after the breeding period.

[Trophyhill]

Tending cows does not constitute breeding! It just means they are a part of the group for that time period!

It is always good to have a common understanding of the terms we us. I thought "tending" referred to the period of time bulls are with cows, from when the cows were actually gathered, until the bulls left after the breeding period.

Yeah I agree. That blows the theory that rag horns are herd bulls for a short time til the bigger bulls show up right out of the water.

[>>>---WW---->]

WW, you keep taking things out of context from my posts, you need to take a look at the whole picture! Tending cows does not constitute breeding! It just means they are a part of the group for that time period!

ElkNut1

Well, I suppose that is what you should have said then! In my estimation, tending is far from just being with the cows. To me, a sheep herder tends the flock. Or, he takes care of or guards the flock. Spikes and raghorns that are with cows in mid to late August are not tending a darn thing. They are just part of the group.

I consider tending to be when the bull has a harem and is trying to rule or protect his interest but not necessarily the actual breeding.

[cnelk]

I consider tending to be when the bull has a harem and is trying to rule or protect his interest but not necessarily the actual breeding.

That was the general consensus when I had my herd of cattle...
Im sure domestic tending is very similar as to wild tending

[Trophyhill]

Q..... You hear an unfamiliar sound. A growl within 75 yards in the timber and you haven't made a sound. What is this elk telling you and how do you proceed?

[ElkNut1]

OK guys, here's my quote from above. Am I not saying the same thing you guys are? (grin) I think the word "tend" is playing with you some, if so please read the rest of the quote below.

ElkNut1

# - 2-- Bulls will tend a harem in this 3rd to 4th week of Aug & on, in many instances it's younger bulls that get there first but will find difficulty holding on to their harems as cows enter estrus, bigger more mature bulls can cast them aside as cows choose the more dominant ones.

Trophyhill, don't you remember reading the answer to your question in the PlayBook? (grin) It's there!

ElkNut1

[JohnFitzgerald]

Q..... You hear an unfamiliar sound. A growl within 75 yards in the timber and you haven't made a sound. What is this elk telling you and how do you proceed?

Trophyhill, I'll give you a hint. My black lab growls at noises when she doesn't know what made them. She will also growl at other dogs if they come in the yard.

[Trophyhill]

Q..... You hear an unfamiliar sound. A growl within 75 yards in the timber and you haven't made a sound. What is this elk telling you and how do you proceed?

Trophyhill, I'll give you a hint. My black lab growls at noises when she doesn't know what made them. She will also growl at other dogs if they come in the yard.

You're getting warm! But you haven't answered part 2 of the question

[JohnFitzgerald]

Q..... You hear an unfamiliar sound. A growl within 75 yards in the timber and you haven't made a sound. What is this elk telling you and how do you proceed?

Trophyhill, I'll give you a hint. My black lab growls at noises when she doesn't know what made them. She will also growl at other dogs if they come in the yard.

You're getting warm! But you haven't answered part 2 of the question

Lets see if others can answer based on my hints.

[elkaholic]

I'm wishing that I had read Paul's book right now.... Unfortunately I haven't, but here goes...

A cow is bedded in the trees just out of sight about 75 yrds away and that "growl" is her warning another elk in the bunch to get out of her bubble.. Either that or she sensed you but doesn't know what you are and she is telling you to buzz off, this spot is taken.

IF I am right and I heard this, I'd wait for a while given the wind was correct to see if I could hear any herd talk. After getting some yardage readings, and nocking an arrow, I would throw a bugle out and challenge the bull that is with the bunch.. Game On!

[ElkNut1]

Hey, I like these thoughts, shows guys are thinking! Yes, any elk can growl, but in nearly any situation you hear a "growl" this will be done by a bull. No doubt growls can have varying meanings but all are related & close to the same message. That should help! (grin)

ElkNut1

[JohnFitzgerald]

My hint would have been more applicitable if my lab was a "he" instead of a "she". But like Paul said, the overall message is the same. For this question, let's assume the growl came from a bull.

[Swede]

I don't know, but I have this book by some crazy who goes by the handle of Elknut1: He says the growl can be either a warning or a statement that the elk making the growl wants you to show yourself.

[Trophyhill]

I don't know, but I have this book by some crazy who goes by the handle of Elknut1: He says the growl can be either a warning or a statement that the elk making the growl wants you to show yourself.

Keeping in context of the op assume the bull has no idea you are there

[Swede]

He is growling at a different critter.

[JohnFitzgerald]

He is growling at a different critter.

That's my thought as well. The bull has no idea you're there and no bugles being given...never really encountered that situation before! It would be a weird one for sure. Possibly a satellite bull or spike hanging around the herd?

[WapitiTalk1]

Not sure on the "why" of the unsolicited growling in your scenario Trophy. How to react? Get close and see if he wants to play

Who else has a question?

[LarryBud]

Newbie Here,

There will be 3 in our group. We have our eye on a drainage that's 2.5 miles long and a mile wide. Mostly heavy timber with water and some clearings. It has steep side walls and most " lazy " hunter will avoid this location. The elevation change is 2000' from top to bottom. We can park a mile from the bottom but to hike around and not through it would be a major effort. Questions:

Hike through it and set up camp?
Where do you set up camp?
How would you begin to hunt it?

P.S. Great information on the forum. I spend way to much time reading the threads.

[ElkNut1]

Trophyhill, bulls will growl for several reasons as I mentioned above. In your situation where a bull possibly growls as you slip in towards them means he's heard something, he will growl seeking identification. He wants to know who or what it is? In other words is it a predator, another bull sneaking around, a cow? Only another elk will recognize this sound/question & respond accordingly. If no satisfying response is given he will most likely move out of the area away from this possible threat! -- So anytime you're slipping in on elk even if you think you are not heard & hear this low growl give a cow call or 3-4 then do your best to get within bow range by going right at him with cover & favorable wind.

ElkNut1

[Trophyhill]

Ok guys this was an actual encounter I had last season. I was taking a break after a brutal hike into a basin when I heard the growl. At the time the 1st thing that came to mind was "this bull has cows and he is telling another bull to back off". I immediately let out a scream and he came back over the top with a challenge. I moved closer and started raking until my branch broke. I didn't know it at the time but I had split the herd. After getting busted by the lead cow and hearing the herd bust out with the big herd bull bugling as they left I bugled another scream hoping to stop the herd but they kept going when suddenly to my right another cow barked and when i turned to see, she, a couple more cows and another big bull were staring me down momentarily. then they got the hell out of dodge before I could draw back. My those things are fast. It's one of those cases that proves you can do almost everything right but 1 little screw up sends you back to camp with a memory. Was raking the right thing to do here? It was working great until I broke my branch and I went for another branch. This is when the lead cow saw me. This was the first week of September and the woods had been pretty quiet as far as talking was concerned.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Newbie Here,

There will be 3 in our group. We have our eye on a drainage that's 2.5 miles long and a mile wide. Mostly heavy timber with water and some clearings. It has steep side walls and most " lazy " hunter will avoid this location. The elevation change is 2000' from top to bottom. We can park a mile from the bottom but to hike around and not through it would be a major effort. Questions:

Hike through it and set up camp?
Where do you set up camp?
How would you begin to hunt it?

P.S. Great information on the forum. I spend way to much time reading the threads.

I would find a good water source and camp next to it. Hit the area with locations bugles as you hunt. Work the wind and plan to locate from key advantage points that will allow your sounds to travel greater distances.

Just my 2-cents!

[JohnFitzgerald]

Ok guys this was an actual encounter I had last season. I was taking a break after a brutal hike into a basin when I heard the growl. At the time the 1st thing that came to mind was "this bull has cows and he is telling another bull to back off". I immediately let out a scream and he came back over the top with a challenge. I moved closer and started raking until my branch broke. I didn't know it at the time but I had split the herd. After getting busted by the lead cow and hearing the herd bust out with the big herd bull bugling as they left I bugled another scream hoping to stop the herd but they kept going when suddenly to my right another cow barked and when i turned to see, she, a couple more cows and another big bull were staring me down momentarily. then they got the hell out of dodge before I could draw back. My those things are fast. It's one of those cases that proves you can do almost everything right but 1 little screw up sends you back to camp with a memory. Was raking the right thing to do here? It was working great until I broke my branch and I went for another branch. This is when the lead cow saw me. This was the first week of September and the woods had been pretty quiet as far as talking was concerned.

Doesn't sound like you did anything wrong. But when I split the herd I usually try to imitate a bull hooking a cow. Sounds like the area you were in was fairly open. I too find elk in area's like that. It's a tough balance between getting in close and finding enough cover to work your sequence.

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

John, when you say a bull hooking a cow, what does that sound like? Short screams/bugles? I know I need the playbook, but at the moment I don't have it, so I figure asking here is as good a place as any.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Trumkin the Dwarf - Short screams, pants, glunks, and chuckles for the bull sounds. When a cow is getting hooked she is very loud, whiny, and carries on forever. Just imagine how you'd sound if someone was stabbing you in the ribs with a horn and biting the back of your neck!

Lot's of crashing, stomping, and other ground noise. My team usually includes 3 members. So in certain cases I will drop to one shooter and pull the other back to me. Very tough to work a hooked cow sequence with just one guys. Usually one for the calling and one for the ground noise.

Just my 2-cents!