Fires

[RockChucker30]

So last year was a terrible one for fire, and many parts of the west is on fire again this year.

Anybody's spots burning?

I'd like some info on the fire process. I have heard several times that the disastrous fires these days are partly due to human's focus on fire suppression for the last 100 years. Is that true?

How do fires affect elk behavior? How quickly do they come back?

[Herb]

Two areas I've hunted in the past are burning. With all the Beatle kill trees out west, get used to it, a lot more big fires to come.

[Swede]

The place I hunt is not burning now. There is a huge fuel loading in many parts of that area. Most of the fuel loading we have on public land can be traced to long term fire suppression. However the area I hunt had very few elk until the early 1980s. The Increased tree density and other cover elk prefer also came due to fire suppression. How elk react to fire fighting activity and the fire effects vary depending an several factors. Elk often come back fairly soon after all of the fire suppression activity is over. how quickly can include several months, if they have a better alternative than hanging out in burned over land.. Dirty burns where some patches are burned, and others left relatively intact, will provide some improved forage, usually the following year, and still leave some cover.

[Jaquomo]

Many of the areas here in CO that have burned the past few years should have burned decades ago. Not only does it clear out the old growth and diseased trees restart the successional process, but it also regenerates mule deer winter forage in some places, which has been steadily deteriorating in nutrition and digestibility due to age.

Herb, when did the Beatles start killing trees? I thought the only damage being done by them currently was Paul McCartney still recycling lame music for old people...

[WapitiTalk1]

Herb, when did the Beatles start killing trees? I thought the only damage being done by them currently was Paul McCartney still recycling lame music for old people...

The UK Constables have been alerted and will be knocking on your door soon. Too funny but true

[Lefty]

The blaze flamed up last night and burned the area I set a few traps in. Those junipers make a very bright and huge flame 1000 acres so far. We can see the fire from the house

[RockChucker30]

Is it just the fuel load that changes a fire from a natural regenerative process into a destructive force? Do the trees have resistance to low burning cool fires, but the brush, dead grass, and small trees growing in meadows get cleared out?

What causes a fire to reach "critical mass" and start killing all the big trees, and get hot enough to sterilize all the seeds in the seedbank? I know some of the fires in recent years have left a dead moonscape behind them.

[Freebird134]

Is it just the fuel load that changes a fire from a natural regenerative process into a destructive force? Do the trees have resistance to low burning cool fires, but the brush, dead grass, and small trees growing in meadows get cleared out?

What causes a fire to reach "critical mass" and start killing all the big trees, and get hot enough to sterilize all the seeds in the seedbank? I know some of the fires in recent years have left a dead moonscape behind them.

"destructive force" is really relative. Moonscapes become early successional forests quickly. Yes, a lot of trees can handle low intensity, periodic burns. In fact, a lot of conifers need fire to reproduce: their cones only open when they are exposed to fire. Even if a seedbank and all standing biomass dies from a fire (which I think is really rare), recolonization is rapid. Birds, ungulates, insects, and the wind are all really good at dispersing seeds into the fertile burned areas.

Remember, the beetles are native parts of western forests. They kill trees--it's what they do and have always done. Historically they probably even reduced major fires: when they killed trees and thinned stands, preventing large crown fires. But recently they are killing entire stands--what changed? Climate change might have a lot to do with it, as winters have been warming and allowing beetle populations to reach incredible densities. Well, if you believe in climate change.....

Often overlooked is the role of invasive annual plants, like cheat grass and other species that can be transmitted in low-quality horse feed throughout the most pristine forests. The west was historically dominated by perennials like sage brush, which live for many years and don't produce a huge fuel load. As annual invasives replace native's like sage, fire frequency and intensity has increased.

[Jaquomo]

freebird, thanks for the great explanation.

We will likely many dramatic changes in the successional processes and transitions if the warming starts up again (after this 15 year hiatus) and the earth's temperatures approach those experienced during the recent period known as the Medieval Warming. Sometimes we try to rationalize what we presume to be "normal", when over the historical timeline there really is no "normal". Only what "is". Forests adapt, plants and animals adapt. If not for for human development in the wildland-urban interfaces, these fires would be welcomed, even prescribed on a large scale.

[RockChucker30]

I've heard that some of the super hot fires of recent years have actually sterilized the seedbank and killed all life in the soil, and that it takes a long, long time for areas like that to come back. True, or not?

I know that here in the East the landscape is massively changed by humans. Where there was millions of acres of native warm season grasses growing now there are millions of acres of tall fescue pasture and hayfields. The NWSG's thrive with periodic burning, and the woodlands do as well.

[Freebird134]

if the warming starts up again (after this 15 year hiatus)

Hmmm.... you haven't been paying attention to September temperatures in Idaho, have you?

[Jaquomo]

Well, as the warmists used to say back when there was localized cooling going on, "regional anomalies don't correspond to 'climate', and a six year localized trend means nothing in the grand scheme" (and I use the term "scheme" literally in this case.) But I'm betting the wizards at the Hadley Center Climate Research Unit could "trick" your Idaho graph to hide the increase and portray it as actually cooling. They've had plenty of practice. But the bigger question is what is considered "normal" September temperature for Idaho if graphed over the past 100,000 years?

Climate change happens. Always has, always will. Only an idiot would assert otherwise, though the warmists tend to use that derisively, as if anyone who is not a panicky alarmist is somehow a denier. The question is in how much is anthropogenic, and that debate will carry on long after you and I are worm food. It's interesting how warmists latched onto that catch-all phrase "climate change" after the global warming stopped in '98, so as to ensure a political scapegoat every time there's a flood or hurricane (which, by the way, we're in a "hurricane drought" right now, contrary to what the models predicted..)

Somehow the ecosystem adapts. Somehow the elk manage to survive, forests grow, rain falls in some places and not in others. Fires burn, and then they don't. It's cooler than normal where I live, and three of our last four winters have been longer and colder than normal. OMG!

[Freebird134]

You might be misinterpreting the Vostok data, but this isn't really the place to me lecture you about that. This is ElkNut's forum, and all that matters is what happens in the elk woods during september

Now I'll just heed WW's plea and bow out....http://www.elknutforums.com/Hunting/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2050

[Jaquomo]

And I'll do the same, after posting a quote from Freebird134, whom I do respect very much. No need to lecture each other, as we're both educated with backgrounds in biology and ecology, just from different sides of the political sphere.

"it seems that people tip-toe around their real opinions, because they don't want to make a sponsor or someone else upset. I know I've been asked again, respect is the answer but shouldn't be in the way of being honest and informative."

[RockChucker30]

So, an ecologist and biologist walk into a bar and start discussing global warming........this is what that looks like!

You guys are WAY over my head on this stuff, and I enjoyed reading it. And don't worry about disagreeing. Everyone disagrees sometimes. Rudeness is what should be avoided.

[buglmin]

One of the areas I hunt elk in has burnt, and some great hunting in GMU 76 has burnt.
Years and years ago, when logging was still allowed, the forests were kept healthy, and yessir, beetles were sprayed for to stop them. But when the enviromentalists shut down the logging, the forests became sick. The fuel on the ground is very dangerous right now here in sw Colorado. And thats where the problem is. With the volumn of fuel, the fires are very hot, and all the trees burn. The soils become damaged, and it takes years and years to grow again. Without the grasses, some of GMU 76 might never be good hunting again.
The videos of the West Fork fire is amazing to watch, the rate of how fast the tree burn in unreal. I was in on the Vallecito fire, and never seen a fire like the West Fork Complex...A very dangerous fire that can burn for months if we dont start getting lots of heavy heavy rain.

[Jaquomo]

Buglemin, our High Park fire last year was like what you described. I watched fires erupt almost a mile ahead of the main fingers, then branch out from there, Interesting that some fuels caused the earth to become almost glazed, and other hillsides are green,green.

That was pretty much all forest that needed to burn, and there were predictions it would burn until September. But July moisture shut it down.

Here's hoping yours comes back green.

[JimKirk]

i tell ya those burns are sort of like natures clear cuts. some of my areas suffered major burns here but the 2nd year things have grown back in seriously green fashion with lots of aspen seedlings taking hold. and this was an intense burn. my experience is the places are like magnets now. although they are ugly, the elk sure seem to love the greenery growing up underneath. and from the looks of this cow, she's getting plenty of nutrients with alot of mouths to feed.

[buglmin]

Nice pic..three calves, you dont see that very often!
There are several types of fires, several levels of heat. Fires that burn slow and burn the underbrush and just touch the trees are the good fires, but when a fire gets so hot that trees burst into flames a hundred yards away from the fire is a hot, bad fire that hurts the soil...like the West Fork Complex.
We are getting some rain now, but not enough to do any good. Rain is evaporated before it hits the fire. I used to fight wlidland fires, and its hard to understand the thinking compared to fighting structual fires. In structual, you attack the fire, in wildland, you let the fire come to you and hope your fireline works,,,

[mtnmutt]

Hayman burn, Colorado's largest wildfire (2002). I hunted and scouted this area. Some of it still looks like the moon..gravel for soil and aspens/grasses barely taking root. Then in the more level areas, lush large acreage of 10+ year old aspen grows that are magnets for wildlife. Elk love those new aspen groves.

I thought SW CO had the Mission Ridge fire of 2002 (2nd largest CO fire), I wonder how that "helped" the forest as did Hayman in some areas.

I am not a forest expert, but hiking around CO Hayman burn scar, I can see the pluses and minuses of a fire. Hayman was a very hot fire in some places.

Never thought 2002 would be repeated and then came 2012/2013. We have not been able to go back to Waldo Canyon. Only 20 percent of Waldo Canyon is vegetation and root system destroyed, ie vegetation won't grow. During Waldo, CO Springs experienced its hottest day on record of 101. I used to hike there 4-5 times a year. Most trails are closed due to dangerous conditions, but Rampart Reservoir trails have reopened and you may see firsthand the forest come back to life. My last Waldo Canyon hike was May 2012, a few weeks before the fire.

To CO Storm King Mtn (1994) and AZ hotshots (2013), my thanks; RIP. We will never forget you.

[Vanish]

Here's a photo of some of the CO Big FIsh Fire 2002 from above this past week. I'd say some places take some time to recover.

[JGH]

I'm wondering if the degree and timing of beetle kill will affect the ability of a fire to sterilize the soil.

For instance, if beetle killed trees fell over, and were stacked horizontally, wouldn't that fire burn slower, and hotter, than a fire of standing dead trees?

[Buglemaster]

I agree John. I would certainly think that a fire with standing timber would not be near the extreme heat as down timber.

[mtnmutt]

CO Hayman fire 2002 was an extremely hot fire and to the best of my knowledge, it did not have hardly any beetle kill trees at the time. CO forest floor simply has a ton of forest debris to fuel a fire with or without the beetle kill pine needles.

Pines beetles started around 2002 because of that drought, but the damage did not appear in mass until years later.

I have never seen large sections of fell beetle kill pine trees. Has anyone? They are mostly still standing, but the pine needles are on the forest floor.