Help Me Close the Deal

[mjblowers]

I've posted this on another forum and was referred here. I'll be ordering the playbook in the hopes that helps me further... but here's my issue, and I'm sure it's nothing new.

For three years now, I'll go out early in the morning, about 4 AM, get to a spot and wait until morning starts to break and blast a first bugle. If I get a reply within 5 minutes or so, I generally reposition and move about 100 yards and then bugle back, with the occasional cow call. If I don't hear a bugle, I just continue to walk in deeper and deeper until I do, and then proceed to wait while I call. Now, this USED to get the bulls to come in to about 100-200 yards, but NEVER would I get my eye on the actual beauty. I would just eventually hear a fading bugle as they kept going farther and farther away.

That was 4 years ago, and happened like that for two years. Now, and call me stupid, but where I hunt the wolves are just becoming thick as snot and I'm RARELY getting a bugle. What I'm getting instead is the elk coming in quiet, IF AT ALL. I have heard only a handful of bugles in the past two years in my same spots, as apposed to the endless screams throughout the days. Even still, I have switched primarily cow calling, and haven't been hearing much, only getting one big boy to come crashing in, only to never get closer than 100 yards.

HOW DO I CLOSE THIS GAP? Do I need to be able to bugle like a pro to do this thing? I know I'm quiet as a mouse, and hidden well (got a wolf with a bow and have had several close encounters) I've also passed on one Cow during that span... I JUST DON'T GET IT. The only thing that I'm 100% sure I struggle with is : Wind and Bugling. The wind, I don't know how anyone can deal with. It seems to swirl and switch directions constantly. The bugling... yeah... I need to learn mouth reeds.

If this information helps: I hunt Idaho. Generally I hunt in the McCall zones 23/24. I'm switch to the Sawtooth zones because of my four wolf encounters last year. I try to go where no motorized access. I walk in fairly far. Full ASAT camo. Sometimes I hunt with Cow scents sometimes without. I try to keep human smells away from close at camp.

[twinkieman]

I've heard a lot of people say that wolves have made elk go silent, and I can't wait to see what others post on this topic. Myself, I don't buy it. Elk didn't start bugling after man got it right the first time and eradicated the wolf. If you've hunted elk, you have smelled elk, wolves smell too, and I've watched elk leave a basin with wolves 1/2mile away, and I couldn't believe it. After being involved in a wolf kill, and smelling the wolf, I now understand how the elk picked them up.
In your shoes I wouldn't just stop at the Playbook, I would get the Sounds By The Elk, Elknut's dvd series, and learn everything you can. Hopefully one of the Elknut crew will respond to this post as well.

[mjblowers]

I'm not going to argue with you, and I hope you are right. Logic would tell me, however, that if I can smell a wolf or hear them howling, or just walked by the carcass of a dead buddy, I would keep my bugle shut.

That being said, elk are elk, not human - so yeah... not going to argue with you, your logic sounds correct. I don't want to get off topic though... I can deal with the wolves, haha.

[N5J]

Its been my experience when hunting in wolf country elk are still vocal. Cows seem to call softer and the bulls will still call but not as much unless they are really worked up. Last year, I sat at the edge of dark timber listening to elk in their beds and they are vocal but not as loud as we would call. We tried cow calling softer last year and were able to call in bulls but they're really cautious hugging in heavy cover and won't commit if they don't see anything. We used decoys and that helped bring in a nice 5X5 and 6x6. Although we weren't able to close the deal on either one we were able to call in more animals last year by calling softer.

N5J

[Swede]

I am not sure all you are doing that is working against you, but where you set up to call is very important. That may be a big reason bulls are not coming in closer. Also it appears you are moving too soon and too much. Paul's book and dvds, as well as threads on this site should help a lot.
One thing I have observed is that elk are not disturbed by the sight of a dead elk. I have shot elk from my tree stand and had them die within my sight. I often sit and wait a while even though I know the elk is dead. While I am waiting I have seen other elk walk by the carcass or the fresh kill. They act like it is not there.
My son killed an elk and waited in his stand for me to get an opportunity to kill one from my stand 80 yards away. We waited about an hour until I shot another bull. They died within 20 yards of each other. That was on the first day of archery season and those two bulls were a part of a large bull bunch, that were hanging around our tree stand site. My son's elk was in plain sight of the others.
We killed those two bulls in the late afternoon. That morning the friend killed his bull from my son's stand. After my son and his friend took the friend's bull to the meat locker, they returned to camp. In camp, they were discussing how long it would take for the kill site to be any good to hunt. I told my son don't worry, lets go now. He killed his bull within one hour of our arrival back at that tree stand locations.
Anyway it is not the sight of a dead elk that is causing your problem. The problem is too many dead elk and not enough live ones.

[GetemDuck]

Not an expert when it comes to calling elk but I have seen first hand that once ground starts getting pounded by turkey hunters, turkey go silent. So I do know animals can learn when to call out. My experience is this and take it for what you will but I hunted the same ground for over 4 years the birds were always vocal, then some one found this spot and must have shared it with a friend who shared it with a friend because it went from public property with near no one hunting it to a place where the parking lot is packed. and Now the birds are still there and they gobble while on the roost and then nothing when they hit the ground, and it has been that way for 3 years now. Not sure if wolves would quiet and elk but I'm guessing that over calling form novice hunters would. Just my 2 cents.

[GetemDuck]

Swede is right back in WV we build permanent tree stands and they produce year after year I have killed a deer and 15 minutes later another deer came in and stuck his nose to the dead deer and then just started feeding on acorns. I watched that deer eat for a hour before it walked away.

Dead animals do not scare anything off. I know farmer that kill antelope and leave them lay or drape them on a fence post because they thing it will scare away other antelope........yes game and fish knows who they are and no it does not scare them away.

[Bullnuts]

I think wolves definitely impact elk populations and behavior but, since I haven't had to deal with them YET here in Colorado, I can't say for certain how the elk will react. To concentrate on your issue, though, with the silent elk, that IS something that happens here very often.
My suggestion is that if you hear a bugle and it's off a ways, you don't bugle back but instead move right to it. If it's close, you get the wind right and set up, break a couple branches or snap a log, make a soft cow call, and get ready. A lot of those silent elk are that way because they've seen it and heard it all before, so they're really listening for other elk sounds. If I'm set up on my knees and an elk hangs up, I'll kick my toes into the dirt to simulate the sound of a hoof hitting the ground. That's usually all it takes to get the elk moving again.

When closing on those distant bugles, if the bull continues to bugle, try to get a general direction of travel and then haul butt that way to try and cut it off. I would rather call to an elk that is already coming in my direction than to try and get one to change directions. Make a wide circle when you do this and keep your eyes open for cows and satellites. Even if you get busted, though, that's not the end of the game. A lot of times those elk will settle right back down and you'll be able to get around them. Good luck.

[mjblowers]

What do you think the farthest distance you can hear a bugle from?

I'm trying to gauge how much ground I would be hauling butt after?

[elkmtngear]

It is very typical for a bull to hang back at 100 yards and look for a visual on any calls they hear. They have your location pinpointed as soon as you call, and if they do not see an elk, many times they will call B.S. on the situation and head out. Also, if you are calling and moving, they can easily bust you when standing in the timber.

Decoys can certainly help in some of those situations. You have several options using a decoy as a shield, and you can deploy it based on the individual situation. It's just one tool you can use to help close that gap.

[Swamp Buck]

If you are bugleing and cow calling at a bull 200 yards away, 90% of the time they will hang up and not come closer. You are of no real threat to them and they have very little reason to force a fight. If you hear those bugles and they are 500 yards away, move in, close. Get INSIDE 100 yards before you ever make a call to him. Once you are inside that 100 yard comfort zone you ARE a threat and will force him to do something about it. He will either run or fight, at least now you have upped your odds to 50-50.

[Bullnuts]

The distance that you can hear a bugle really depends on a lot of things - time of day, terrain, wind, timber, etc. I have tinnitus in both ears so when I hear one, he's normally pretty close! That's why I love hunting with my kids - they have great hearing and they hear a lot of the elk sounds that I miss.

All that aside, in heavy timber you're probably not going to hear a bull over 200 yards away. The trees knock that sound down pretty quickly. In canyons, you'll hear them a little further away and if you're above them you'll probably hear them better than if your are below them. The general rule is, if they sound close, they are. If they sound a long way off, they're still pretty close. Cut the distance in half on those distant bulls and use your optics and listen close for hooves, breaking brush, or other elk sounds. If you hear hooves or breaking branches, you're right on top of them - time to set up and call one in. If you don't, listen and use your optics to try and figure out where they are. Get within that 50 yard zone and give a soft chirp and be ready for the first good shot.

[Pop-r]

I believe you can hear them well over a half mile in the right condition's. Possibly up to a mile!

[ElkNut1]

Simply put, when running & gunning elk you need to do a lot of calling! Time of Sept & rut phase will dictate how much calling will be required? Most hunters do not call nearly enough, they are easily intimidated from a past bad experience or two because of negative results as you mention. Wolves can have an impact yes but elk still bugle a plenty here, you just have to be where they are & during a period of hot cows can contribute to their calling immensely. It's not the calling as much as the inopportune times you are choosing to do it!

Even if only one distant bugle was heard, that's your chance to choose the right calling sequence to attract this elk to you after you've moved his way to setup. Do not call your way to him every 100yds or so! This only works well if there are already multiple bulls bugling in a specific area, of course if they are bugling one another there is no need to bugle yourself. There's so much on this subject, get the PlayBook, it will help you out a lot!

ElkNut1