Run & Gun

[Swede]

On this forum we have hunters who are strong advocates for run and gun and also those who come close to railing against it. I admit to being closer to the camp against it than being a major advocate, but do not deny its validity as some users have great success with it. So here are the questions to start with.
Is a technique for everyone? Why?
When is it the best way to hunt? Why?
In what areas should the technique be employed? Why?
Are there areas and times to completely avoid run & gun?

I have to go out for my morning hike now. I will join in with some observations and opinion this PM, if this gains any traction.

[Swede]

Maybe I should have added that, "run & gun" is hiking from spot to spot to spot calling without long delays in between stops, listening for an answer bugle, then hustling in to get the bull.

[elknturkey]

This is coming from my turkey experience and not my elk but I could see how it would have the same effect. I use to be a run and gunner and killed several that way but also spooked a heck of a lot more. I'm a bipolar hunter now. I'm patient but once the critter reveals his location I get aggressive not necessarily with calling but setup.

I can see people with not much time to hunt run and gun to try to get in the game before time runs out but if you have plenty of time to hunt I believe its better to get to a vantage point and listen or glass. Some days they just aren't vocal and you risk spooking em by moving or calling and having one come in quiet. If there not spooked you may go back the next day and there screaming.

Just what I've gathered. I don't have near the experience elk hunting as majority on here but that's what I got a feel of when I been. Just like hunting turkeys but with a better nose and turkeys want run to the next county when spooked

[JohnFitzgerald]

I call it Bugle Chasing, since I'm using a bow instead of a gun.

This tactic can be for anyone who wants to put in the hard work and time to make it happen. One must learn when to be aggressive and when to be reserved. Also, when to give a bull what he wants and when to give a bull what he doesn't want. A chaser must be prepaired to move fast and also adapt to the situation. Ability to call should be decent, but understanding the elk language and how to respond is more crucial than sounding like a world champion.

There is no black and white with this method. Instead there's general guidlines and styles that build the foundation. But the underlying core pricipal is that chasers force the situation to happen instead of waiting for it.

Chasing has the best results from mid September into the first part of October. It can be used ANYWHERE!

Both ambush and chasing are equally successful methods. What it comes down to is what scratches the itch for you!


My 2-cents!

[Broken arrow]

I'm planning to move faster than still hunting but slower than full on hiking to get somewhere. When I hit fresh sign or actual elk that hopefully I haven't spooked. I'll slow it way down and try and get a game plan even if it means setting up to ambush them that evening or the next day. Unless I find a bull fired up then I figure I better move on him quick before someone else does. Very similar to how I turkey hunt on public land here in mo. I think a good mix of everything will get it done. I've got 2 weeks no reason to wear myself out!

[twinkieman]

Since scouting is not an option, before the season, I have to scout as I hunt. In areas with little or no fresh sign, I tend to cover ground a lot faster than areas with sign. If I pick an area to hunt and I do not find good sign, I than amp up and run and gun until I locate elk. I can locate them by bugling, lost cow calls and if I hit an area that I can see good in, I'll stop and glass. I would have to say that I employ run and gun to locate elk, and that is about it. I don't run and gun, blow a setup, and race to the next one. Once elk are located I am much more methodical.

[Bullnuts]

I guess I'm more of a sneak and gun than a run and gun. I do move a lot and put in a bunch of miles during a season, but they're slow miles. I move from place to place, set up, call, wait a while, then if nothing comes in, I'm up and moving again. I only hunt as long as the thermals are in my favor, and then I head back to camp to do a little analysis on what I saw during the morning and figure out a place to sit in the afternoon. I typically sit on water or grass, or sometimes on a travel route over a saddle in the afternoon. So why all the movement in the morning? The big thing is, I can't sit still. I have a really tough time sitting for more than a 1/2 hour at a time, so if I can press the action, I will.

[Swede]

I can see people with not much time to hunt run and gun to try to get in the game before time runs out but if you have plenty of time to hunt I believe its better to get to a vantage point and listen or glass.

There is some excellent information here, but I am still scratching my head some. As a fairly new elk hunter, I am still wondering if it is right for me and my area. I don't understand why elknturkey thinks run and gun is better if I don't have a lot of time to hunt. I want to get an elk, preferably a bull, but a good cow will do. Meat on the ground is my objective, and the sooner the better. Are you saying I should I wait until day 7 of my 10 day hunt to start running? Why, I am in good shape?

[WapitiTalk1]

Gotta throw in my thoughts on this one. "As a fairly new elk hunter, I am still wondering if it is right for me and my area".. Geez Swede, I was trying to eat my burger and beans, about choked, LOL. I equate the run and gun style of archery elk hunting as it's titled, during the rut, to excitement which for me, means the world each elk season. Ever since I heard my first elk bugle back in 1874 (I may be off a bit on the year or decade for that matter), it has captivated my dreams between Septembers. It's the stuff that keeps me going every year. I know I'm kind of sick and really haven't cared if I get an elk each year for quite a while... it's all about the excitement created from matching my wits with Bullwinkle as he and I have a heated conversation and I try to position my partner for a shot. This oftentimes occurs in an area where a 30 yard shot is rare. A 5 to 20 yard shot may be more likely. I've had them scream in (literally) and nearly run me over which makes my day. I'm all about the vocalization of the mighty wapiti and the privilege of hunting them during the rut, climbing up/down/across the mountain sides and attempting to get close. It may or may not be the best way to harvest an elk, but it's what I know and prefer. This said, the tree stand thing is very intriguing also, I just don't know enough about it yet to employ this method. At some point, I'd like to have both methods in my arsenal and perhaps split time with them each elk season. Maybe next year? Good thread Swede. I'm very interested in hearing other's perspective. RJ

[cnelk]

My input would have to mirror Bullnuts

We slip thru the timber, set up and call at certain locations, hoping to make contact with elk.
As we move over the course of 3-4+ miles, the terrain can change and you just never know when a bull will light up from your calling,
or a big fat cow will come running in looking.

More times than I can remember I have seen elk before they see me.
And that wont happen if you're moving too fast.

Run and Gun?
Once we were into a herd of 40-50 elk and they were drifting downslope.
I took off running, full speed, to try to get around or in front.
It ended up more run than gun...

[elknturkey]

I can see people with not much time to hunt run and gun to try to get in the game before time runs out but if you have plenty of time to hunt I believe its better to get to a vantage point and listen or glass.

There is some excellent information here, but I am still scratching my head some.

Well it does make people scratch there head . I mean why not just run and gun from the get go so you can get into the elk faster

[JohnFitzgerald]

Anyone can learn to chase and become very effective at it. I've heard several hunters say elk just don't bugle in their area so the chase tactic doesn't work. We'll I can tell you that unless you are hunting extremely pressured elk, all bulls rut.

A few year ago my crew and I got into ~ 5 bulls in a very easily accessible area. After the morning hunt and as we were walking back to the truck a couple hunters drove up and started visiting with use. Their comment was they'd been bugling all morning and there wasn't a bull left in the country. I smiled as they headed down the mountain. What they failed to realize is that because of the full moon and very hot conditions, the bulls were bedding 1/2 hour before the first glimpse of light started peaking over the hills. We got there an hour before that and heard the bulls ripping bugles back and fourth.

My point is that it's really easy for hunters to fault the chase tactic and label it as a non effective in their area. Instead, every hunter needs to ask themselves several questions:

1) Am I bugling at the appropriate time to get a response?
2) Am I bugling from a good location that will allow my sound to carry?
3) Am I using the Location Bugle to locate?
4) Am I in a good position to hear a response?
5) Am I hunting in an area that holds a decent population of elk?
6) Do I know what the elk is saying when I get a response?
7) Do I know how to respond to a vocal elk?

Would it make sense for me to say, "The elk in my area only move when it's dark so I'm not even going to try tree stand hunting"? Elk are creatures of habit and instinct. All bulls rut when the cows start dripp'n, so all bulls can be chased.

My 2-cents!

jf

[JohnFitzgerald]

My input would have to mirror Bullnuts

We slip thru the timber, set up and call at certain locations, hoping to make contact with elk.
As we move over the course of 3-4+ miles, the terrain can change and you just never know when a bull will light up from your calling,
or a big fat cow will come running in looking.

More times than I can remember I have seen elk before they see me.
And that wont happen if you're moving too fast.

Run and Gun?
Once we were into a herd of 40-50 elk and they were drifting downslope.
I took off running, full speed, to try to get around or in front.
It ended up more run than gun...

That's why I like the term Bugle Chasing. Run and Gun makes people believe that we are out there running through the hills. We are very strategic in our methods. At times, we can move very quickly in the direction of a bull but very few times we've actually run. How many hunters have heard a bugle and moved very slowly towards it ;only to listen to him disappear over the next ridge? Chasing is getting to the next bugle before the elk have time to disappear.

[Swede]

My point is that it's really easy for hunters to fault the chase tactic and label it as a non effective in their area. Instead, every hunter needs to ask themselves several questions:

1) Am I bugling at the appropriate time to get a response?
2) Am I bugling from a good location that will allow my sound to carry?
3) Am I using the Location Bugle to locate?
4) Am I in a good position to hear a response?
5) Am I hunting in an area that holds a decent population of elk?
6) Do I know what the elk is saying when I get a response?
7) Do I know how to respond to a vocal elk?

Would it make sense for me to say, "The elk in my area only move when it's dark so I'm not even going to try tree stand hunting"? Elk are creatures of habit and instinct. All bulls rut when the cows start dripp'n, so all bulls can be chased.

John: You just opened Pandora's box here. Those are the kind of questions I was hoping to get answered here, so run & gun or what ever we call it is a more effective tool. I see it often just running elk off. Literally. But I know there are a lot of proponents who use it most effectively. Let's put a keen edge on this tool so everyone on the forum is better equipped to use it effectively. We do not want to just run elk. We want to get to the gunning part.
Also I don't understand your analogy. As a tree stand hunter I am very selective about where I set up, and will pull out if elk traffic stops in the area. If I could know the elk were coming around, only at night, I would be moving on. Your analogy not withstanding it sounds like you are saying run & gun is a tactic best suited for the rut.
Thanks for your help. You are on the right track.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Sorry let me explain my analogy a little better. Here's two statements I've heard:

"Elk don't respond to calling in the area I hunt so the chase tactic doesn't work for me"

"Elk only move at night in my area so the ambush tactic doesn't work for me"

If you believe one is true then you have to admit the second is possible as we'll. I believe neither and if anyone does, a great opportunity is passing them by.

My 2-cents!

ps Great post Swede!

[Sucobowhunter]

I prefer the "run and gun". I guess I am looking for those fired up bulls. I cover a lot of miles and am moving all day until that fired up bull responds then its game on. Am I possibly missing out on a lot of silent bulls? Yeah, Probably but I personally love bugling bulls!! Thats what gets me going!! I want that bull bugling and raking trees right in front of me. The run and gun style allows me find those fired up bulls and then make my move. I feel as I get older I will gain some patience and try to cold call more but as long as I can hike my ass off, I will. As a side note I live in elk country(literally out my back yard if I want) so I have the opportunity to be in the woods EVERYDAY during the season so I have plenty of time to find those bugling bulls.

[Bullnuts]

We do not want to just run elk. We want to get to the gunning part.

That's where the term run and gun get screwy. Yes, you can hear a bugle an go running after it, be seen, heard, or winded, and bust an entire herd of elk before you ever have a chance, or you can be meticulous in your approach. If I'm going after a bull I make sure the wind is right, and I work toward that bull only as fast as I can see. I glass ahead A LOT and look for movement, tan sides, a brown head, etc. I am not trying to break into the middle of the herd (although that did happen once and I was surrounded by elk) but I'm trying hard to get on the edge where I can work out a strategy based on what the elk are doing. If they're in the timber just milling around, that's perfect - I'll edge myself in close and either challenge or give that bull the "I'm not wearing any...." you know, estrus whine and get him coming my way. It's a whole lot easier to kill an elk when you know exactly where they are, what they are doing, and how they are reacting to your calls.

By the way, if I get a bull going and he starts coming to me, I don't run and gun obviously. I set up and let him come in. If he doesn't seem to want to come in, I pick a good route, stop calling altogether, and work in. And unless the wind makes it impossible to do so, I will circle the bull and come in from a direction other than the one from where I was at when I first heard him. The bull and any cows will be expecting something from that direction, so their attention will definitely be focused that way.

[Sucobowhunter]

Well put bullnuts..

[twinkieman]

Swede, being a treestand hunter, I have to ask. Have you had someone running and gunning blowup a treestand setup?

[elkmtngear]

Elk herds are dynamic, they move according to hunting pressure, rut conditions, etc. At least that is the case where we hunt on Public land.

Ambush is great if you have the right spot, I've killed quite a few elk this way. But it seems more effective in our area to cover a lot of ground and try to get into a situation.

Also, when the stars are all aligned, and the bulls are screaming at eachother in a rut frenzy, I do not want to be sitting in a tree. I absolutely want to be in the middle of that!

[Swede]

Twinkleman: Yes I have had run & gun hunters mess up tree stand hunts and much more. There are four main paths where runners & gunners travel through the area we have tree stands. Many hunters follow along the trail in the canyon bottom. The two main ridges above the canyons are used as well as a prominent break on the east side of the canyon about 1/3 of the way up. Many times I have heard hunters calling from these selected travel routes. They go 100-200 yards and bugle for 5-10 minutes then move then bugle again and again. I have seen herds of elk running away that they never knew were in the canyon.
Don't get me wrong: I am not against run & gun. I have done a variation of it there many times too. I like to try it when the wind is working for me. In the early morning following near the canyon bottom is fine. During the day you are better off near the top just below the rims.
The problems I see are several:
1, The elk are educated to the hunters now. R&G has been over done
2. With almost all, if not all, the R&G hunters run way too much. John Fitzgerald made an excellent list of questions I wish he would now answer. They get to the core of R&G tactics. In the area I hunt, most hunters are just running off the elk
3. The R&G hunters are not careful about the wind. They are low in the canyon, near the trail, or along the rims at all the wrong times.
4. They start R&G the first day of the season and are trying it to the end. They will be blowing their tooters and squeezing their squawkers on Aug. 24th the same as they do on Sept. 23rd.
5. Their set ups are often horrible. I have seen them stand out on a prominent point along the rim to bugle. They are visible for miles while calling.

I cannot be sure of this, but I believe the tree stand hunters I hunt with there, have killed more elk in that area than all of the runners and gunners combined. Half of the men who hunt out of my camp just want to run and gun. "Tree stand hunting is boring", but not one of them has ever killed an elk while hunting anywhere in Eastern Oregon when standing on the ground. They will sit in a stand a little, and that is when they have had some success.

[Bullnuts]

I think your term run and gun is maybe confused with stumble and fumble. There are elk hunters and then there are guys who hunt for elk. I personally consider myself an elk hunter, so I go about my business carefully with the ultimate goal of killing an elk at the end of each and every attempt. Then there are those who hunt for elk, and those guys may not necessarily be skilled in woodsmanship or understand how elk behave. Not to say they're all novices because I've met some new elk hunters who "get it" and I've also met some guys who have been hunting 20 years but it's like year 1 repeated 20 times - they never learn anything.

It sounds to me that if you're dealing with the latter kind of hunter and you see the same mistakes every year from the same guys, you're either going to have to move or learn to accept the fact that they're going to blow up your opportunities occasionally.

[elknturkey]

I think your term run and gun is maybe confused with stumble and fumble. There are elk hunters and then there are guys who hunt for elk. I personally consider myself an elk hunter, so I go about my business carefully with the ultimate goal of killing an elk at the end of each and every attempt. Then there are those who hunt for elk, and those guys may not necessarily be skilled in woodsmanship or understand how elk behave. Not to say they're all novices because I've met some new elk hunters who "get it" and I've also met some guys who have been hunting 20 years but it's like year 1 repeated 20 times - they never learn anything.

It sounds to me that if you're dealing with the latter kind of hunter and you see the same mistakes every year from the same guys, you're either going to have to move or learn to accept the fact that they're going to blow up your opportunities occasionally.

Well put and more or less what I was trying to say.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Be carefull not to label everyone who blows a bugle as a Chaser. A true Chaser is a student of the tactic who doesn't buy into the commercial garbage that if you buy "their" call the elk will come running.

jf

[twinkieman]

Swede, I have killed numerous blacktails out of the trees, I've never sat in a tree for elk. My hat is off to those of you that kill elk out of a tree on a regular basis. I have a spot in mind to try out, and maybe this year I will give it a go. I like to call game, elk turkey, deer, coyotes, wild boar, etc. Sitting with patience is probably the most effective way to kill game, I, however lack a great deal of patience. I am respectful of other hunters, and if I know someone else is in an area, I go elsewhere. I would not consider myself to be one of those hunters that you spoke of moving elk without even knowing they were there. When I do run and gun
1. I bugle in the dark with location bugles
2.If I receive a response I do not call again until within 100 yds of the bull
3.I have been hunting the same area for the past 6 years, and I go to locations that have held elk in the past.
4. I do understand(now anyway) what the elk say when they respond, and NOW,( Thanks to Paul) know how to call effectively.
While I don't literally RUN and GUN, I do use a version of it, just not a stumbling bumbling form of it.

[Swede]

In all fairness, there are some good to excellent hunters calling in the area I hunt. There are plenty of "stumblers & fumblers" as Bullnuts discussed. The problem is there are just too many people trying to call in elk. The elk are call shy and I have seen elk running from an excellent callers. The only hunters I have ever got upset with were those from my camp, who knew where I was sitting in a certain tree, and they had to come in close and try to call the elk to themselves. I never saw an elk that day and neither did they.
There are many books, videos, television shows and magazines all proclaiming "buy this" and just start killing elk. As anyone knows; it just does not work that way. Bow Hunter magazines and others list "critical gear" used on a hunt, but it is not even "special". It is just whatever they chose to hunt with. I applaud every hunter who studies and goes out to learn to be effective. I understand you will mess up my area, but are you learning anything?
As I said earlier, I am not against R&G hunting. I see there are a lot of variations of it being used. I can't say that I see enough yet on this thread so an inexperienced hunter could make effective use of the tool. To be honest I think it is like the Hoochie Mama; over rated and over sold. As others have said, it is just an opinion.

[Bullnuts]

I think the guys in your camp need a lesson in manners. To know where you guys are set up in your trees and to encroach on you is pretty rotten and, to top it off, they aren't very good at what they are trying to do so they run everything off. That is pretty bad. I hunt in an area that is OTC and we get a fair amount of pressure, and I find that the elk do become a little shy after the first week. BUT, I'm also one of those next ridge over guys who believes that the distance between me and the road raises the possibilities of seeing and hearing elk exponentially.

Unfortunately, to learn how to hunt like me, you've gotta hunt like me. There is no substitute for experience so guys that are learning this method will bump an elk, or a herd of elk, on occasion. The key is to learn from those mistakes. The other key, as you say, is to also avoid all the hype of the guaranteed success shows. It's important to learn to call and to learn to listen, and to know when it's appropriate to do both. Yes, there are a lot of guys who over call but again, experience will hopefully show them the way.

One word of advice I have for those who want to try this method is this: If you call, and there is an elk around, it WILL hear the call. Elk have amazing hearing and they are very in tune with what it going on around them so following up that bad bugle with another that you think will sound better will only alert the elk to your presence and give them another opportunity to zero in on you. Watch your downwind side when you call, use your optics, and be smart enough to listen for elk sounds that aren't vocalized, but maybe a snapping log, hoofs on the ground, or raking antlers.

[Treestalker]

"The only hunters I have ever got upset with were those from my camp, who knew where I was sitting in a certain tree, and they had to come in close and try to call the elk to themselves. I never saw an elk that day and neither did they."

That would be the last time they were a welcomed guest at my Elk Camp.

[Treestalker]

The problem is there are just too many people trying to call in elk. The elk are call shy and I have seen elk running from an excellent callers. .

You are 100% correct on this one Swede. Here in Western Oregon, this is so true. The Elk can be very "call shy" for the very reason that every hunter here thinks that these "Westside" Elk are to be treated like their Eastern Cousins. That is NOT to say that the bulls are not vocal, they are very vocal at night, especially by the end of Sept. thru mid-October. Most of these hunters would be better off to sit, look & listen.

[JohnFitzgerald]

I can't say that I see enough yet on this thread so an inexperienced hunter could make effective use of the tool. To be honest I think it is like the Hoochie Mama; over rated and over sold. As others have said, it is just an opinion.

So for tree stand hunting we are allowed a learning curve but aren't allowed one for R&G? How do you suppose these "inexperienced" hunters gain the knowledge to make it a successful tool?

By that same reasoning, I should be telling myself that since I've never tree stand hunted I will probably make a lot of mistakes thus I just shouldn't do it.

One must learn to crawl before they walk, walk before they run!

Just my 2-cents!

jf

[cnelk]

Years ago, elk hunting meant going up a mountain and sitting under a tree and wait for the elk to walk by.
Those old timers killed many, many elk. Run and Gun was not a term or even a tactic.

Anymore, 'instant gratification' is not just limited to our daily lives. It has evolved into elk hunting too.
With most people's time being so limited, the 'run & gun' technique has become popular.
And with that popularity, come success.
If the same number people that used the run & gun tactic went and sat in a tree stand and kept quiet, the success rates would probably not change.
Its the law of averages. [Just like the old timers]

Many hunters have created their own way of 'run & gun'. Some do actually run.
What worked for them once under not exactly perfect conditions, they believe it can happen again.
Even if means throwing caution to the wind... literally.

The Run and Gun term and tactic is quite broad.
I have used it. And will again. But not in the way others may.

[JohnFitzgerald]

And to loop back to one of my previous posts, r&g and tree stand hunting are great tactics and I defend both. This year I will use the best of both worlds to get the job done.

If you want to be your best at the sport, you must be open minded. Two years ago you wouldn't catch me 20' up in a tree. This year.........

[Swede]

So for tree stand hunting we are allowed a learning curve but aren't allowed one for R&G? How do you suppose these "inexperienced" hunters gain the knowledge to make it a successful tool?

John: You seen bent on comparing R&G with tree stand hunting so let's do it.
1. There is not a hunter on this forum who does not basically understand what tree stand hunting is.
I started off with a definition of what I believe R&G elk hunting is, but even a cursory review of the posts here will show there is no consistent definition.
2. There are many threads on tree stand hunting tactics, there is a book on the subject and many magazine articles on the subject as it applies to elk hunting.

Many hunters have created their own way of 'run & gun'. Some do actually run.
What worked for them once under not exactly perfect conditions, they believe it can happen again.
Even if means throwing caution to the wind... literally.

I will let cnelk's summary fill in here for where we are on R&G hunting. I feel I could just as well have asked for good fly fishing casts for catching ghosts as to pick out good usable R&G tactics.
3. We are nit picking cnelk's tree stand height. We wrestle over calling from a tree or the use of a decoy.
I see a long learning curve on R&G hunting if we can't even define what it is and have no agreed on methods. Maybe I should not have made a joke about the fellow calling from the back of a pickup. He is somewhere in the learning curve.

To summarize what I have been trying to get to. Lets develop a clear definition of basically what R&G is. Then lets discuss what we know or think we know about useful tactics. Lets give elk hunters an understanding of what we mean when we throw out the term. If we are real lucky maybe we will get to the point where we can assess the effectiveness of the tactic. When all those basics are done, lets compare it with tree stand hunting. At least we will have a reference point at both ends.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Swede - It was never my intent to compare the two because I don't have enough experience in tree stand hunting. My comments were only stated to show a double standard. I think a few spun this away from instructional towards a conflict. For my part in doing that, I publicly apologize.

[Swede]

John: You sure do not need to apologize to me. Maybe I need to be the one to apologize. I take no offence. I love an honest and open discussion/debate. No one needs to lose. I just want the topic clarified and for hunters to win. I want you to build a good case for R&G and explain.
Then I can jump on you.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Now your talking, game on!

What is Chasing(R&G) and how do you do it?

Of course the obvious like wind, terrain, and cover are part of it but I will not address them. They are a given no matter what tactic you choose. So here's a snap shot of Chasing.

1) This item should be the easiest but I've seen some completely implement it wrong. Make sure you are bugling at an appropriate location and time. If it's full moon and hot, bugling after dark is a great way to pick up a bull. But don't rule out early mornings and late evenings. Mid September to early October are the "Sweet" days to pick up a vocal bull.

2) If your hunting the "Sweet" days and don't get any response, move to another location. This can be the next canyon over or 30 miles to a completely different spot. Go to where the elk are vocal! Eventually, you will pick up a singer.

2) To maximize your chase, call from high peaks and area's where your sound will carry. And if you have a tree squirrel chirping in the tree next to you, shoot it or move on to a location that you can list better.

2) When locating use a neutral sound like the location bugle. It's non aggressive.

3) Once a bull is located, try and determine satellite or herd bull.

4) Move as fast as you can to close the gap before the bulls has time to disappear. Be careful and consider that satellite bulls might make their way to you.

5) Tactics from this point on vary so much it's hard to state all of them. But the general guidelines are to know what the elk is saying when he vocalizes and know how you need to respond both verbally and physically.

If the star's are aligned, no more tag soup!

And for the second part of your challenge, a good case for it. The instinct to rut is a strong enough urge that hunters can use it to their advantage.

[Swede]

Ok John: I can agree with your definition of chasing. I prefer chasing to R&G. R&G sounds like something that should be left for Rambo. I like your definition better that the one I used in post #2. Hiking down a trail or ridge calling about every 100 yards and never waiting more than a very few minutes never made any sense to me anyway.
Does bugling at an appropriate location mean making sure I have set up in cover in case there is an elk within hearing range? Should I be on guard if something is attracted to my call? Should I change my chase tactics if I see good fresh sign around?
I'm think I am catching on about this "chasing" business now. As I understand it, I won't wait long if I don't hear a response. I'm going on the odds that if I don't hear a response there is nothing within my hearing range. I can accept that in the rut, but not late August through early September.
I still don't like it being used any time within 5 miles of my tree stand, but at least I will accept it as a legitimate way to get elk instead of just "chasing". oops

[Sucobowhunter]

To me archery Elk hunting is about beating Elk at there game, in there home and seeing the best looking country the us still has to offer. For that reason I prefer to be moving more. Does that mean I am being dumb and just blowing calls and not paying attention to the wind, elements, etc.. NO.. I could not imagine sitting in a tree stand all day. Its not always the thrill of the kill but the thrill of the hunt. I don't take any of it for granted!! Just like fishing and life in general, there is no right or wrong way, just the way you do it!!

[Bullnuts]

So I think that the right terms here will be hunting from a tree or hunting from the ground. They're both effective, both used widely by all kinds of hunters, both potentially misused, and not for everyone. Whatever tactic you use, be good at it! Spend more than the time you have during the season to learn your craft. Learn to read the wind and terrain in the summer, not the fall. Read everything there is to read about elk behavior and why they do the things that they do. Learn to call. Learn when to call and when not to call. Everything in hunting is situation based - I could have killed that one if I.... And then the next time you find out that even if you do that one magical thing, you still walk away empty because of some other variable. No one, even the experts, can claim mastery over this sport because we are dealing with a live, thinking animal. Minimizing the variables that we have control over gives us the edge, though.

So what I'm getting at is this: whether it's from a tree or from the ground, hunt your hunt, learn from your mistakes, and try to understand and control the things that we can control and don't worry so much about the things that we can't control because they won't change anyway.

[cnelk]

socobowhunter made a good analogy comparing fishing to elk hunting.

Many people have sat on the shore watching our fishing line, in hopes a fish will bite.
And at the same time looking out across the water and seeing several boats doing the same thing.
But they have the ability to move.

Maybe the person on shore doesnt have a boat.
Maybe the person in the boat cant walk down to the shore

Who catches more fish?
Depends....
Maybe they are there to just fish... not catch

Whatever you chose, do it well, and good luck

[Swamp Buck]

To me, Run and Gun is looking for that bull that is bugling and trying to make a move on him (period) whatever that move my be is dependent on the situation (wind, mood of elk, ect...).

Moving from cold call set-up to cold call set-up is NOT Run and Gun.

[Swede]

Well fellow hunters we have made the short circle complete again. We have no agreed upon definition for R&G. We have means to describe the different plays we use to go after elk, that are located. Some of those techniques are simple terms like "the threat" or "spot and stalk". At the least "R&G", to me, is a meaningless elk hunting term, unless we define what we are referring to. For now I like John' "Chasing" term as he defined it. It fits and I understand what he is saying. Also I can add my own thought on how it refers to chasing elk out of my hunting area, by hunters beginning their learning curve.
Let's go hunting, and if you want to Run and Gun by all means do it. Whatever it means.

[pointysticks]

i thought "run and gun" was just a figure of speech.

it is a just a method of covering more territory. no?

[JohnFitzgerald]

Does bugling at an appropriate location mean making sure I have set up in cover in case there is an elk within hearing range? Should I be on guard if something is attracted to my call?

Funny story, well it wasn't so funny then. Several years ago my crew and I sat down on ledge that overlooked the union of two canyons. I ripped serveral location bugles. To my amazement a bull steps out of the timber directly below use and started up hill. He soon realized that we were not another bull and bolted. So yes, elk can and do come into a location bugle. Keep in cover as best you can.

Should I change my chase tactics if I see good fresh sign around?

I go with the best option. If I get into an elky area and the bulls aren't talking, I switch to my cold calling tactics. This is the same when you pick up a bull that bugles before light and beds early. You can't hunt them in the dark so get close and wait for light. I note that his bed is usually the last place I heard his bugle. Sometimes I get this wrong but most of the time the bull is very near.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Well fellow hunters we have made the short circle complete again. We have no agreed upon definition for R&G. We have means to describe the different plays we use to go after elk, that are located. Some of those techniques are simple terms like "the threat" or "spot and stalk". At the least "R&G", to me, is a meaningless elk hunting term, unless we define what we are referring to. For now I like John' "Chasing" term as he defined it. It fits and I understand what he is saying. Also I can add my own thought on how it refers to chasing elk out of my hunting area, by hunters beginning their learning curve.
Let's go hunting, and if you want to Run and Gun by all means do it. Whatever it means.

Unfortantely, inexperience probably does chance some elk out in your area.

[Relentlessly Unforgiving]

Swede it's seems that you have your own, yet unexplained version of the run and gun! Tale at I haven't understood it yet. You have had some bad experiences and also had good opportunities due to this tactic while sitting in your stand. I was a stand hunter for whitetail long before I decided to do DIY back country hunts for elk. I was busted many times by other hunters blowing calls and spraying scents on private land repeatedly. Running and gunning is not calling and listing from a certain location. This may occur possibly near your stand and if its from your own party shame on them. R&G to me is taking the temperature of the elk in a certain area and working them from that angle.

What R&G is and is not, from what I've learned from this site and its publications:

1-Do not blow calls as you walk though the woods without the elements in your favor. If your running your not listening, if your not listening your not hunting.

2-Be ready at all times while calling. Running will not work here. If your running your not ready.

3-Yes elk come in silent, but if you keep squeezing that hoochie mama they will become accustomed to it, skirt around you and get a visual or wind you.

As you have read, R&G can be interpreted many ways. R&G will work and can be implemented in different ways. It starts with knowing your surroundings and TAKING the elks temperature. If they want to go, let's do it. If they are quiet, lets chill and find an approach that may not be so invasive and put the shooter in the best location to kill.

My point is:

R&G per the novice elk hunter or "lucky" hunter IS arbitrarily blowing or squeezing on those calls expecting a response in any location. But a seasoned or educated elk hunter will blow or squeeze a call in a location that elk are known to be. Hoping to hear a response and work them from that angle.

[Swede]

[quote="JRHOLDSEM"]

"Swede it's seems that you have your own, yet unexplained version of the run and gun! Tale at I haven't understood it yet."

If you read post #2 you will clearly see your statement is completely untrue. When I posted that, I believed it was an acceptable common definition of R&G. My objective was to develop some best use guidelines for people who read about the practice and want to try it. I also wanted to see if we could help people avoid common mistakes that end up running off elk.
It was after my original posts that it became obvious there is not even a common understanding of the term R&G. There have to be at least 10 different explanations of what constitutes R&G.
If you were here and remember back in June, cnelk started a thread on the origin of R&G. Someone wrote it began in the 1960s, if I remember correctly. Elknut exclaimed that 95% of all elk taken come from R&G. I did not think spot and stalk or even wandering in the woods qualified as R&G. I never thought ambush or park and shoot qualified.

Quote JRHOLDSEM
"My point is:

R&G per the novice elk hunter or "lucky" hunter IS arbitrarily blowing or squeezing on those calls expecting a response in any location. But a seasoned or educated elk hunter will blow or squeeze a call in a location that elk are known to be. Hoping to hear a response and work them from that angle."

I agree with your statement as quoted except for the part about calling where elk are "known to be". It is obvious that many R&G hunters are using the technique to try to find elk. With that change we are right back where I started in post #2.

[Relentlessly Unforgiving]

I stand corrected it was stated in post #2. As a new elk hunter myself, may i pose the question to you? What are the chances of a hunter or lets say a group of hunters getting a response by blowing or squeezing a call relentlessly through the woods. Again Im new at this and trying to learn as much as i can because it seems that there is more damage that good done if the TIMING is not right. And with timing; we have time of the year, time of the rut, time of the day, time of the month, and the list goes on, ect.

[Swede]

JR: It all depends. There are very few "always" or "never" statement I will hang my name on as it applies to elk hunting. We are always working the odds. Are there elk in the close proximity? If you mean constantly; that is one thing I would not recommend, but if relentlessly means without giving up that is different. I have gone through an area making location bugles about every 200 yards to 300 yards. At each stop I wait a while and listen. It works sometimes. Where I am hunting it works much less frequent, as the elk are leaving soon after the hunters hit the woods, for the sanctuary of a nearby ranch which has several hundred thousand acres of safe haven. Where you hunt it may still work fine. I would always use that technique with the care and caution you and others have pointed out.

[Bullnuts]

"I agree with your statement as quoted except for the part about calling where elk are "known to be". It is obvious that many R&G hunters are using the technique to try to find elk. With that change we are right back where I started in post #2."

I disagree with you Swede. I certainly wouldn't be running and gunning in downtown Denver, because elk are known not to be there. In my neck of the hunting woods, though, yes, elk are known to be there. I may not know the exact location of them, but I do know that they are there. So I call to them. If I knew their exact location, without calling, all the better, I could just sneak right in and kill one.

Your chagrin for hunters who practice run and gun is obvious, whether they do it well or not. You've been impacted by the technique, by guys in your own camp, no less, and you seem to have lumped everyone who hunts this way into a similar category.

For JR, no, your chances of seeing elk is NOT good if you and a bunch of guys go off through the woods relentlessly blowing or squeezing a call. Elk hunting, even elk hunting in the rut, is still 99% hunting and 1% calling. You've still got to know how to hunt, when to make a move, when not to make a move, etc. or you won't be successful. Even bulls that engage you in conversation have a better than average chance of getting out alive based on the decisions that you make.

[Swede]

Bullnuts: Let me explain a few things my friend. I am not necessarily against a tactic just because I disagree with some of the way(s) it is practiced. I have used that technique, as I understand it,many times myself. Let me add, I use R&G to locate and hunt elk. I have a 9 day partial R&G hunt planned for this season. My son and I will R&G to locate the elk, then go after them during the latter part of this hunting season. I am not against the whole thing. What specifically frustrates me is that hunters R&G the area where I have a few tree stands so much that the elk leave. I do not debate their right to hunt any legal way they choose.
I have and still R&G in elk habitat, (not Denver) when I do not know if the elk are present at that time. Often I have gone out in the early morning, or late afternoon and call into different spots trying to get a response. Though I do most of my hunting in a tree stand, my son and some friends still continue to R&G. What I have said here before I will repeat. R&G is not working like it used to, at least in some heavily hunted areas. R&G has been used so much that now the elk head out for the ranches early and the hunters in pickups can observe them, by the hundreds, from a distance as they park along the highway.
My son and I tried to R&G a herd of about 150 elk heading to a nearby ranch on opening weekend about four years ago. I was calling while Luke tried to move in. Unfortunately it was a group of hunters he ended up going to, while the elk escaped. Once the elk jump the fence they are gone for good for that season.
In heavily hunted area I believe hunter success would increase if more patience was practiced. Where I normally hunt, R&G has evolved to run and run. I believed when I started this thread that educating hunters would actually be a benefit to everyone. I am sorry I started it.

[Relentlessly Unforgiving]

In heavily hunted area I believe hunter success would increase if more patience was practiced. Where I normally hunt, R&G has evolved to run and run. I believed when I started this thread that educating hunters would actually be a benefit to everyone. I am sorry I started it.

Swede, this thread has been educating and very informative. It has provided many opinions of the tactic, both good and bad. This thread has my peaked interest because as I've stated before, I'm a new elk hunter. My worst fear is blowing another hunters setup by utilizing the wrong technique. This is why I choose not to squeeze and blow as I walk through the woods. No need to be sorry I and others here are enjoying this thread.

[Swede]

JR: Thanks for your response. I had come to believe it was more confusing than enlightening.
I hope you get the understanding that R&G is used to locate elk. and not just where hunters know them to be. If fact, R&G is used primarily where hunters are trying to locate the critters. If the thread has been helpful to you, I am pleased.

[Relentlessly Unforgiving]

JR: Thanks for your response. I had come to believe it was more confusing than enlightening.
I hope you get the understanding that R&G is used to locate elk. and not just where hunters know them to be. If fact, R&G is used primarily where hunters are trying to locate the critters. If the thread has been helpful to you, I am pleased.

It has and you have a short time to start another thread that may ruffle a few more feathers before the season begins. I will be looking for it and plan on participating within the threat. But for now I'm off to chase blacktail in California. Yes, I live in CA but hope to move to the elk woods soon! Do it swede I'm sure there's another topic that's been under you skin!

[Swede]

I do not know if this will surprise anyone, but I did not start this thread to irritate anyone. My intent was to develop a better understanding, of R&G. If it has helped anyone, I am pleased. I really don't have a pet peeve on my mind. Anyone who has been here long, knows I will share what I think about a subject, if I have an opinion. JR: Good luck on your Blacktail hunt. I may go on one in the late season, if I do not shoot a Mulie before.

[twinkieman]

Swede,
I believe you have hit it dead on the head. THERE is NOT clear definition, within the ranks of responders to this thread, as to what R&G actually is or what it is. Who hasn't had some kind of hunt messed up by someone, claiming to be a hunter, blundering through the woods, and not caring or having the ethics to respect the other hunters who are out there. I applaud your effort to make us all think about the subject, and if every post has been read, there has been an educational value in the thread. Maybe not as you intended, for a novice hunter, but by experienced hunters from all over the forum. Keep the topics like this one coming!

[Treestalker]

In heavily hunted area I believe hunter success would increase if more patience was practiced. Where I normally hunt, R&G has evolved to run and run. I believed when I started this thread that educating hunters would actually be a benefit to everyone.

Swede, this has been a very informative thread and points out one of the biggest issues stick & string Elk Hunters face here on the West Coast. I blame it on Our right to free enterprise, cable TV & our busy life style (which, the first two I love). I enjoy watching elk & deer hunts on tv, prior to the season, just as much as the next guy (or Gal). The problem I see or better stated, the illusions it depicts, is that you walk out into the forest, blow on a call and bingo, a bull lights up. And then it goes to commercial break and some new, must have call, is being flashed before us and via creative marketing techniques, and we are roped into buying & trying it.
I have a busy lifestyle as most of us that are not yet retired do and finding time to break away for a quality, well executed hunting trip is tough to do. Two - three weeks straight would be ideal and give a hunter time to hunt smart, patient and in a methodical manner. But, this unfortunally is not the case for most. We have alot of folks that participate in Our 30 day archery season. Now, on average, most hunters can only find time to hunt maybe 15 out of the 30 if their lucky. So many of us(including myself, in the past) view the hunt with a do all, try all, get'r done no matter what attuide, that we end up stacking the odds againts us, in most cases. Now, I am refering to public land hunting, where we have no control over what other hunters game plan and or tactics are.
I grew up in the Midwest, where hunting for deer meant a hunter buys a tag and could pick up his or her bow and start hunting in September. Now, come mid November if no prior success, the same hunter could pick up a firearm and hunt a 1-2 week gun season. If still no luck, January offered a 3-4 day muzzlerloader season. If the hunter still had not tagged out, well out came the bow again til the end of January. My point is, (and I am not comparing the deer population of the midwest to the elk populations) that it gave the hunter pleanty of time and allowed the hunter (if a educated hunter) to hunt in a methodical manner. Over the past 5 yrs. of living here in Oregon, I have told folks that if the ODFW allowed a hunter to purchase both a archery & a rifle tag, the adverage hunter would not feel the pressure to have to "pull out all the stops" to achieve their goal. Of course, the common reply is "dream on or fat chance" you are in Oregon and not the Midwest. The hunter could still only harvest one elk and the state could double their intake on tag fees...just saying.
So, where does that leave us? Well, if you are fortunate enough to have access to a private ranch and don't have to contend with the uninformed, hopeful blow & go hunters, count your blessings If not however and you are going after the same group of elk that the next guy or gal is, then do everyone a favor and try sitting, looking & listening and if you feel the need to wear rubber off the soles of your boots, try doing it wisely i.e. playing the wind, staying silent and using the terrian to your advantage. This will yield higher success rates and less frustrated hunters.
I have a close friend who's cousin is a pro staff member for one of the large bow manufactures and has been fortunate enough to harvest 50 plus branched bulls with his bow. When asked "what is your secret" he will answer, "I have learned to read and understand elk sign, behaviorism & vocalization". He may let out one or two location bugles and when he gets a response, he puts it away, makes a move towards the herd and gets up close and personal with the herd bull. He has shot a number of bulls in their beds as well.
So, to sum up....my 2 cents would be; if you don't have patients to take up a high perch, put on your stalking shoes, keep the wind in your face and try to outsmart the elk at their own game.

[Bullnuts]

Swede, I too am finding this thread to be educational and I do not mean to offend. If we go waaaay back and think about the purpose for this site in the first place, it is to discuss elk hunting and educate and help each other to become better hunters. Having not hunted on the west coast, I can't feel your pain. Pressure, for me, is to have a couple other hunters in my area - for you, it's to have direct head to head competition to get to the elk. I don't know how you guys deal with pressure like that, but your description of how the elk react is obviously their answer to the problem and jumping onto private land is probably a long learned trait that has developed over several years.

It may be that the whole run and gun thing differs, not only in meaning, but by practice in different geographical areas. I feel your frustration with guys who blow up your areas and that is why I've tried to stress treading lightly and hunting instead of charging ahead aimlessly. My apologies to you sir if I overstepped.

[Swede]

If this thread has been educational I am pleased. Honestly I began having my doubts, and I wish it met the standards Bullnuts refers to in reminding us why this forum got started. I began to wonder if we were communicating continuously through this whole thread. I began to wonder if I had controlled it too much.
I am frustrated with R&G; it is because the people I see running are truly ignorant of the effects they are having. When I say ignorant, I do not mean to imply they are void of intelligence or intentionally careless. They really don't know any better, and are harming themselves far more than they harm me. I have been getting elk in spite of them. Part of that ignorance I attribute to the things Treestalker spoke of.
I have never tried to discuss the matter in any way other than in a public forum. In fact I don't remember talking about R&G anywhere other than here.
Bullnuts: I know you are an accomplished elk hunter. You mean well and I have no problem with you or your opinions. You are highly encouraged to speak out. Your experience is very valuable here. After reading your prior post I wondered if I had carelessly tried to explain myself. You would certainly not be the first to take something I said in a direction I did not expect.