Elk Fight - Video

[JohnFitzgerald]

Most of you have probably already seen this video. But what's interesting is the language the bulls use. See if you can understand what they are saying. Don't be shy....post your thoughts. I challenge you!

[Wapiti]

Even though the herd bull had a bad leg the ferocious sounds he makes the cows know who is the boss and the most impressive breading bull. This was established early on in the rut.
I personally think the cows have choose him already and the satellite bulls are just trying him !! That bull is smart as you notice he stay's in shallower water with less current and he uses the current on the other bull during his fight.

Then he bugles after the fight to let the girls know where he is. He then does a shrill bark at the other bull to say GET LOST !!

That bark had a lot of meaning behind it as it was fast and shrill and menacing !!

Thanks for sharing that video....... man I get so pumped up just listening !!! Thank you again !!

[JohnFitzgerald]

Interesting perspective. Never really heard the nervous bark defined as menacing. Anybody else before I give my 2-cents?

[>>>---WW---->]

That was no nervous bark. It was a hart thumping grunt! Notice that he only did it once and it was directed at the lesser bull that was trying to steal his cows.

I think this video also shows an excellent example of the difference between chuckles and grunts, even if he only used the one single grunt. But it was plain to see that the lite chuckles at the beginning were directed at the cows while the grunt at the end was clearly aimed at the younger bull.

[WapitiTalk1]

That was no nervous bark. It was a hart thumping grunt! Notice that he only did it once and it was directed at the lesser bull that was trying to steal his cows.

I think this video also shows an excellent example of the difference between chuckles and grunts, even if he only used the one single grunt. But it was plain to see that the lite chuckles at the beginning were directed at the cows while the grunt at the end was clearly aimed at the younger bull.

I agree with WW. No bark there but a few well placed, heat of battle, single note grunts directed at the intruder. Everytime I watch this VID I marvel at the acorns of satellite #2 coming in from the top of the meadow, screaming in, and attempting move/take the cows. If he would have flew in a few minutes earlier, he may have been more successfull. Both the challenger (satellite #1) and the herd bull use bugles w/chuckles towards the beginning of the VID. Lots of challenge/warning bugles going on throughout the sequence.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Ok, here's my play by play.

Satellite #1 one first comes onto the scene and lets the cow's know he is a suitable bull for them. Around frame second 20 the herd bull reconizes that #1 is more than just a satellite and has come to battle for the "right". Then around frame second 31, he directs his bugle towards his cows to signify that he is still worthy.

Skip forward, around 1:05 he gives a short bugle then at 1:14 he turns to look at his cows. If and only if the herd bull was trying intimidate #1 this was the time. But, I feel he was directing it at his cows.

Skip forward again to 2:05, satellite #2 comes on the scene. The herd bull is not in a good position to defend his cows, expecially with the limp. The bull screams/bugles at his cows to control them from running off. Second frame 2:22 you can see the tailing cow is looking right at the herd bull. She is taking cue's from him.

Pay real close attention at second frame 2:15. Who's giving the nervous grunt?

Short screaming bugles and chuckles by the herd bull to manage his harem is what I get out of this clip. Every sound was direct towards his cows.

Many of you out there probably disagree with me. But this is just my 2-cents and worth nothing more.

[WapitiTalk1]

Hmmm. Good play by play JF. I'll re-watch it later when I can turn the volume up a bit. I did quickly check the sound at 2:15 and it is indeed SAT 2; I concur that this is not a grunt but in fact a nervous bark (holy crap SAT 2 thinks..... what have I gotten myself into). Check out the sound right around 2:39 from big stinky, that's a hard grunt after his bugle, yes? Good thread.

[JohnFitzgerald]

RJ - I think all three were nervous grunts given by #2. I just can't tell on NG 1 and NG 3. So for the NG that we know for sure was given by #2, why did he give it? If the big stink did give NG 3, why?

jf

[JohnFitzgerald]

So RJ, what do you think happened? The more I watch, the more I think the bugle at 1:14 might just be Challenge Bugle.

For others, I want to hear your play by play? I'm probably completely wrong on mine so tell me what you think. A few of us have stuck our necks out. Will you?

[Glacier Country]

Those screams from the herd bull (IMO) are directed toward the other bull. He is protecting his girls! I teach tone , intensity and pitch. The chuckles are for the girls but not those schrill knarly bugles. Those are directed to the other bulls.

[ElkNut1]

+ 1 on Troy's thoughts!

ElkNut1

[JohnFitzgerald]

Ah, three Challenge Bugles in a row and not three screams in a row! Guess I'm still confused on the definition of a scream. Is it the length of the scream that determines wether it's directed at the cow or the bull?

[BrentLaBere]

As a green horn it makes more sense to me to think of it as a challenge and a threat to other bulls. A few questions do come up when trying to dissect this video.
-@ 1:05 Why does bull #1 turn and direct his scream towards his cows while posturing to bull #2 in the river? Is that scream really directed at bull #2?
-@ 1:50 I believe its bull #3 that gives out a bugle but is this bugle really to threaten bulls #1-2 while they are fighting? Or is it instead towards the cows?

Things that have me scratching my head. Really enjoy following these two threads in the off season so a big thanks to the guys participating with experience!

[JohnFitzgerald]

Ah, something just clicked with what Troy said tone, intensity, and pitch. Maybe, just maybe we should talk Challenge Bugle vs. Call Cows Bugle. Both have seperate meanings but both can have elevated intensity raising the sound to a scream. But defining a call as a scream is very misleading to me. Like Paul stated, at times situation can dictate. But in a chaotic scene, like in the video, the meanings might just be unclear to the hunter. What if this scene happened to you in real life? Do you really think you'd have a birds eye veiw....maybe. The area I hunt we don't get that. It's all vocal queue's. The second time I watched the video, I closed my eyes. And those Challenge Bugles at the end sounded like he was demanding his cows to come to him.

Thanks Brent. The entire point of this video was to get people scratching their head.

My hope is that my misinterpretation of the video helps others to not make the same mistake out in the field and to clearly know the difference between the Challenge and Calling Cows bugle.

[ORelksniper]

Love this vid and it has led to a good discussion. Thanks, JF. This is my perception. At about:31 HB bugles and chuckles at his cows. (Stay close, I got this). At 1:05 as HB and Sat #1 are posturing, HB gives short bugle to his cows. (Not sure why other than reassurance). HB and Sat #1 lock up and about 1:50 there is bugle from behind. I believe Sat #2 is talking to the cows, not advertising his presence to the other bulls. At just about that time Sat #1 has had enough and breaks off the fight. At 2:08 HB screams, I believe at Sat #2. (You want some of this,too). At 2:15 is first grunt or bark (nothing nervous about that sound) and I think it was made by HB as an exclamation to the scream because #2 wasn't backing off. Second scream and bark (or grunt) by HB definitely directed at Sat #2. Third bark(or grunt) was by HB as parting shot at young punk who thought he could cut in.

If this scenario developed in the woods where we could only hear it how different would our take on it be? For me, the agressive bark/grunt sounded too similar to the alarm bark I've unfortunately heard before. Anyway, thanks again JF.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Thanks for your thoughts Sniper. Watch the mouth of Sat #2 at 2:15. Who gave the Nervous Grunt?

[ORG]

why did you put a line under the challenge at the top ? why did you put 3 happy faces after challenge coment? i can read between them lines

[ORelksniper]

I think maybe you're right, JF. It's hard for me to see the mouth of #2 but the tone or quality of that first bark/grunt was different than that of the second which came from the HB. So, assuming Sat 2 made the first bark/grunt, what was he saying, and to whom? Was he throwing out a half hearted, I'm not sure I really mean it, kind of challenge to the HB?

[JohnFitzgerald]

Sniper - Taking the definition of Nervous Grunt and Alarm Bark, which one fits guys?

ORG - Shhhhh!

If you close your eyes throughout the entire sequence theres's a lot of fast paced action. Let's say a hunter was standing 200 yards away and heard, not seen this action. With all the other crazy that occured, could those final Challenge Bugles and Nervous grunts be misinterpreted as "Nervous Grunts and Calling Cow Bugles all by the herd bull"? Completly different than what really occured. Who would work and arrow that #2 Satellite if you realized that you had 3 bulls and not just two?

Like I said, hope my misinterpretation helps others.

[Mojostylee24]

What would be the best way to start working Bull#3 Cow sounds? an even smaller bull sounds?

-Mojo

[WapitiTalk1]

What would be the best way to start working Bull#3 Cow sounds? an even smaller bull sounds?

-Mojo

As hot as all three bulls are, they are all ripe for an arrow. Problem I see is that it's way too open on this side of the river to get close. Wind permitting, a hunter could circle way to the left and intercept the herd bull and cows as they seem to be moving now in that direction. I think SAT #3 would come in on a string to some lost/regathering cow sounds, or, even bull sounds, if you were able to position yourself with favorable wind anywhere close to the herd. Of course this is offered based on what we see in the clip and if the elk were not in in a National Park ...Just my thoughts.

[Mojostylee24]

Thanks! This thread is incredibaly valuable to someone like myslef that is just barely beginning understand "elk talk". It can be very intimidating to try learning having little to no experience hearing live elk talking in their house...tuning in and reading all the elk killers' take on this situation is solid gold!

-Mojo

[JohnFitzgerald]

I agree with RJ. Satellite bull #1 and #2 just got owned by the herd bull. They might be very easy to call in with sweet cow sounds.

Let me just add this, what if we didn't realize a 3rd bull happened upon the scene? For me it would have been very easy to think that the cows had been scattered for some reason and the herd bull was talking them back in. Great oppertunity for the hunter if that was the case, right? Sneak in quickly and threaten him. With cows scattered, they can get very aggresive. The cows really weren't scattered, were they. As he followed the cows out and you possed a threat, maybe he might turn and fight. But what about the satellite #2? Wouldn't he be a better bet? I don't like throwing out a lot of what if's, but throwing out a Challenge in the area isn't really the best way to put an arrow in him. Expecially just after getting ran off by the Herd Bull.

Point, make sure you know what's going on before you committ.

Just my 2-cents.

[Swede]

I agree with RJ. Satellite bull #1 and #2 just got owned by the herd bull. They might be very easy to call in with sweet cow sounds.

I believe this is the most important point here.
For the hunter that needs to get in close, the question is how to take advantage of the situation at hand. I generally agree the bulls are screaming at each other, but it looks to me like the herd bull screams at his cows just before he takes on the 1st satellite in the river.

[ORG]

i liked what swede typed.

did you no it was challeng bugle john ?

[JohnFitzgerald]

i liked what swede typed.

did you no it was challeng bugle john ?

Nope!

Is this the same Slade that I met up hunting this year? If so how did that hunt work out?

[ORG]

i shot a bull the next day. thank your for the help. tryd to find your camp wife wanted to cook you diner. need to re pay you some how ?

[JohnFitzgerald]

I just recently noticed your name and your registration date. Sorry didn't put it together sooner.

That's sweet bud! I didn't own that elk, you don't need to repay me. I'm assume you arrowed that bull just to the North of C-Meadow? I want to find out which bull you took. Hey, maybe it was the bull that stopped bugling on us. LOL Send me a PM so we can talk further.