Nervous Grunt vs. an Alarm Bark

[WapitiTalk1]

Is there a difference? Whatever it/they are labeled as, yes I firmly believe there is. For those of you/us that have been in the elk battle for a long time, we have experienced "both" of these elk sounds. Most elk hunters that have been in the game for years (any weapon of choice) have certainly encountered ALARM barks. It almost always signals the end of an encounter and elk butts mooning you, going in the opposite direction (if you're close enough to see them); it is almost always your last memory of that particular hunt. Now, for those of you who have chosen to hunt a season that facilitates calling for Wapiti, I would surmise that you have witnessed a nervous or popping grunt (again, however you want to tag/label the sound)! I know for many of those reading this, they have not either had the pleasure of (or perhaps refused to give it it's day in court due to whatever ambient phenomenon where they hunt) a full effort in the calling endeavor for whatever reason. That aside, for those of us who have....... we have either called in or worked in on vocal bulls that throw out a sound that sais "HEY, WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU"; I'm getting a bit nervous here as I can't see you or smell you and if you don't show yourself or make another elk sound I believe, I'm outa here faster than rabbit at a Golden Eagle Recovery rally". The vocalizations may sound similar but are different in their context/meaning. It's all about the setting of the encounter IMO. Care to discuss this further? Carry on, it's worthy of our time.

[Swede]

I have said all I know to say on the subject. Well maybe not quite.

The vocalizations may sound similar but are different in their context/meaning. It's all about the setting of the encounter IM

I agree with this statement completely. I have heard both uses of what I just call a bark. I can't hear any difference in the sound. I have tried to detect a difference since reading Paul's book and posts, but I can't hear any. None. Nada. If I can't hear a difference, how would I possibly change sounds? If I get a chance to try a bark this year after shooting a bull, it will be with my voice. That will not be a perfect reproduction of an elk sound at best. I am about 59 1/2% sure in my mind it will work.
Thanks for bringing up the subject again rebel rouser.

[Brendan]

I don't think there's a difference in the sound at all, I do thing there's a difference in how the sound is used and it's frequency.

One at a time, maybe one every minute or two where an Elk isn't moving away. Potentially moving towards you, but looking for you and trying to figure out what you are. Uncertain, but not really alarmed. This is the "Nervous Grunt", "Popping Grunt" or however you call it.

More frequently, repeated multiple times, multiple Elk joining in, coupled with "Let's get the heck outta here" - Alarm Bark

I've actually experienced the "Nervous Grunt" more than the "Alarm Bark".

[ishy]

The big difference I've noticed is if they smelled you they will be headed out. If they saw/heard/sixth sensed something you are not out of the game. I like to respond immediately with the exact (or close as possible) sound and throw some chuckles on the end. It usually will keep them milling around the area for a lot longer than you think and remove a level of their concern. I did this with a cow and calf this year and we called back and forth for about 20 minutes before they headed out. The bull I took was within easy earshot of the entire exchange and came on a string a half an hour and half a mile away.

[>>>---WW---->]

OK,so what is the difference between a nervous bark and an inquisitive bark?

[Swede]

OK,so what is the difference between a nervous bark and an inquisitive bark?

I think only Disney could do a better job of giving animals human language than we have given to elk. No doubt elk make different sounds and they can tell us what is happening with them. A bark shows it is nervous, A chuckle indicates he wants you to come, a bugle is looking for a response, etc. We can tell when an elk is hurt or lost by the sounds they make. By knowing what these sounds are about, we can determine how we want to call back or we can initiate the calling.
I would be the first to admit, this is where I feel most comfortable now. I have changed some of my thinking about the extent of elk language over the years. I am still impressed in the number of sounds they make and the significance of what they reflect.

[Heartwood]

I'll say it once again. The Elknut calling system has worked well for our crew. We now have employed almost all of the tactics and calling scenarios that Elknut teaches. Every single one works and we have improved our harvest success many fold. The nervous or popping grunt is our go to sound to stop bulls for the shot and to stop bulls after the shot. For forum members that are not already educated on the Elknut system and if you want to improve your elk hunting success, learn it! Also, many thanks to Elknut for chiming in on these posts from time to time. I learn something new every time I talk to Paul.


In the english language, we have words (sounds) that mean different things depending on the context of the situation. Same thing for the bark vs the popping grunt, similar sounds but different meanings depending on the context of the situation. I don't doubt that some highly experienced individuals actually can tell the difference between the two by sound alone.

[twinkieman]

IMHO, There is definitely a difference in two sounds. If you have watched the Elknut DVD's, Paul first called it a popping grunt, then later, he said someone he knew in Colorado, was called the sound a nervous bark, so Paul was going to compromise and call it a nervous grunt. For my purposes, I learned it as a popping grunt, so popping grunt it is. A popping grunt asks a question, and there is a absolutely, no doubt in my mind, a difference. Just as , when we humans ask a question, there is a change in our tone at the end. Many of Heartwood's experiences have been witnessed by myself, including one where he made a voice "popping grunt" that I still tease him about, that bull stopped on a dime, not once but twice! Also, yes. different names have been given to the elk sounds, but when we call the by the same name, it's far easier for all of us to understand each other, when we have discussions on here. If you learn to speak Spanish, in your head you still translate the Spanish word, to the word you know in English, Uno, One, dos two etc. Heartwood, and the others we hunt with, are all using the same vocabulary, and names for elk sounds, it keeps us all on the same page. My last words on this subject is this, there are many different ways to kill elk, call elk , and talk elk. The Elknut system gives us the sounds, names, and the meanings that Paul has attributed them to mean, as of yet, I haven't found any of these methods, not to work , at the right time, for the given situations. I learn more each season, and each season, the number of bulls I call in, increases, with a majority of these bulls, called in for others.

[msd1228]

I find that there is a pretty significant difference in the intensity of the nervous bark vs the alarm bark; I find the nervous bark substantially softer and the cadence is completely different (spaced out sounds vs fairly rapid succession).

I had a fun encounter with a nervous barker this past elk season. My hunting partner and I had bulls bugling both above and below us, and I won the "rock paper scissors" to go low after the bigger sounding bull while he stayed higher up to see if he could intercept whatever was above him. Things didn't end up working out with the lower bull, but in the process of calling to the lower bull I ended up bringing the upper bull down the hill. Once the upper bull hit a certain location he stopped and started playing the nervous bark game, and I replied in kind. After a half dozen or so nervous barks back and forth I hit him with a bark-scream all in one motion (the nanosecond my tongue dropped off the reed to complete the bark I slammed it back up for the scream). That nervous bull came unglued at that sound ripped a scream back over top of me that shook the trees. Brought him 5 yards past my hunting partner. That upper bull ended up being a pretty decent 5x5, unfortunately we were hunting a 6x or better zone!

[Beendare]

What happened to my post?

No personal attacks from me.......

[WapitiTalk1]

I think you're talking about your post on the Let's Bark thread Bruce; nothing has been deleted

[saddlesore]

I think here is a difference,The nervous bark seems to be sharper and shorter, the popping grunt,maybe not as sharp and a little longer After listening to Paul's in either the Tips and Clips or Archived Tips for about 20 times that is what I came up with.

I had a chance last ML season.I bumped into a small herd and they left with the barks. Later on in the day, I was softly calling 2-3 cows and they hung up a little, I could see them moving in the trees, so I tried the popping grunt.Darn if a cow didn't stick her head out long enough fo rme to shoot her.

[ElkNut1]

Keep it simple guys! Just look at the encounter you are in when hearing it! You will know real quick if it's the Nervous Grunt or Warning Bark by the elk's action! (grin)

If winded or seen, it's most likely a warning bark & they leave the area quickly. A nervous grunt reaction by both cows & bulls remain in that area or spot awaiting a visual or satisfying elk response that they are asking for. If none is received within one or two minutes they wander off in most cases. These are the things to look for, Not how did they sound!

The reason for not being to concerned about the exact sound over the encounter you're in is elk come in the form of calves, cows & bulls. They also can vary in age dramatically & will have a different tone in their use of either a Nervous Grunt or Warning Bark depending on their maturity. It's not always the same tone! Read The Situation & it will become automatic of what you're hearing!

ElkNut1

[>>>---WW---->]

Right on! So why do you keep on insisting it is a grunt instead of a bark if they are still the same sound? I totally agree on the reaction to the sound. And I totally agree that the sounds produced are the same. If you remember, a few short years ago we had a telephone conversation about the popping grunt. When you explained the call to me, I said that what you were doing was a nervous bark. And from that time on, is when you started calling it a nervous grunt or sometimes a nervous popping grunt. But you have always been reluctant to call it a bark. But that is OK I suppose. It is just terminology.

So there are nervous grunts and nervous barks. They are the same! Only the reaction is the different. So my question is, why is there never mentioned a sound called a warning grunt instead of a warning bark if they are the same? Just something to ponder for the sake of conversation!

[Brendan]

Is there a "Pissed off Elk" Bark?

I had a sentry / lead cow sit there "barking" in my direction for a good 20 minutes looking for the other cow trying to steal her bull as I'd been cow calling, and had the bull all worked up and "mewing" at me as I called him into shooting range, before he figured something wasn't right before I could get a shot. The cow came looking for me and I was in full view about 40 yards away as she barked at me looking for me - so had to remain frozen so she didn't see me. I could tell she wasn't pleased. She eventually did wander off, but after coming closer several times over a long period of time...

For the record - this is probably what we're referring to as "Nervous Grunt", "Popping Grunt" - but not really an "Alarm".

[Swede]

To me, this whole discussion is good for anyone that wants to use a bark/nervous grunt to stop an elk. Someone above wrote they did one with their voice and it worked. It worked! I really don't think it matters if you believe there are subtle differences in the nervous grunt and the bark. If you can hear a difference, wonderful. I can't. Just don't be intimidated and not use it when the opportunity arises. The only thing I would add is you can initiate the call.
One thing that would be interesting to me is for those that think they hear a difference in the sounds of nervous grunts and barks. Have you heard the same elk give out both sounds from the same location at nearly the same time, or have you heard the sounds from different elk, at different times and at different locations in the forest?
When I was working with crews in the forest, marking and cruising timber, everyone had to stay close together. The person with the best hearing was the tally person (keeping track of the tree count and information on size and grade) because we could not clearly hear and understand voices over about 70- 80 yards at best. If we were spread out, the sounds broke down so they were completely worthless. That was in open forest. If the forest was dense, then we had to stay even closer together. If the tally person was walking to keep up, then the sounds they made became a problem too. Even at 50-60 yards the tree markers always had to holler and be very clear in the numbers and species they called out. They often had to repeat. Sounds in the forest are not the same as talking across your living room.

[saddlesore]

If that is the case,then it should be pretty hard to screw up any elk sound imitation.Which I have contended for years concerning cow calls .Then you have the whole conversation of saying that bull is a big big bull vs a small raghorn when you hear a bugle. Is the raghorn close and the bigger bull far away ,making it sound like the bugles are reversed. Got to remember elk's sense of hearing is way more accute than a human's . It might be a mistake to compare what we hear vs what an elk hears at different distances.

My wife an I spent 8-10 years in Yellowstone before the big fires photographing elk.We probably heard about every sound an elk could make. A big herd bull will sound completely different at the tail end of the rut than it sounds at the beginning. At the end they are almost hoarse and can barely get a bulge out.
All thru the rut the same bull will make a short almost whistle and the next time maybe a full deep throated three note bugle with chuckles at the end

[Beendare]

Well of course Paul nailed it in his "Tone" remark.

Personally I think tone matters more on all of these communications than the actual quality of the call itself. I would say I'm living proof of that....as I would never win a calling contest but regularly call these bulls in and I think its mainly due to "tone".

Still not a fan of using an alarm call......

Edit; I would use it in a last ditch effort...really only in one situation. So say my buddy or myself is spotted moving in [but NOT winded] and an unseen satellite or cow barks....I immediately bark back and hold completely still.....or better yet flash the decoy. My return bark is not with emphasis....almost a chirp.

As I said, i've used the bark to stop a bull moving across in the trees for a shot and both cases it didn't work out well...namely because once you do it...the jig is up. You put them and every other elk in hearing distance on danger alert. It backs you into a corner with no other options. The one time I was in between a big 300" satellite and a herd bull i never got a look at.... at full draw with him moving quickly downhill through thick trees.

There was only a couple small holes to shoot through as it was thick. I stopped him but the momentum of his body carried him past my beachball size hole with only a shot at his hind end....and it left him staring daggers at me from 20 yds. No chance of him calming down and taking a step or two that could possibly give me another shot opportunity. So after 2 minutes... when I let down he made me [hadn't before as I was camo'd/kneeling]..... he headed for the next county with his tail on fire. The bark...or whatever you want to call it left me with no other options....

Sure they stop quick on a bark....so if you have a shot you had better take it....and it better be good. A cow chirp thrown behind you does the same thing at close range...stops them....AND they are alerted but not to danger.....AND they don't zero in on you. With the chirp, you will have more options if the first case doesn't work out so well. My take anyway....YMMV

[ElkNut1]

I too have stopped & taken elk with a cow sound, problem is I've also have them not hear it & keep moving on. Years ago I started using the Popping/Nervous Grunt, it stops elk DEAD in their tracks simply because it asks an ACTION out of them, a cow mew asks nothing! With more than 3 dozen bulls in the freezer with this Grunt from the Crew on OTC elk hunts we'll keep using it as needed! I still will use a cow sound at times but the Grunt is my goto sound!

ElkNut1

[ElkNut1]

WW, I was going to mention that phone call. Point is there's no need to confuse things. Nervous Grunt is way less confusing that a Nervous Bark because most hunters as you can see right here are associating all barks as a warning! Nervous Grunt is perfect terminology & in my opinion is all that's needed in helping other hunters understand it! You knew what I meant all along but for some reason you felt the need to exploit it in a way that would create confusion, I prefer the opposite route, I want to help hunters, not confuse them.

ElkNut1

[>>>---WW---->]

[Wapiti]

About 3-4 years ago I was out bow hunting and trying to locate elk in our immense bush we have in Alberta. I was with my wife and we had walk for miles and miles and got nothing to respond as it was early in the season. So we sat down for a rest a I let out a location bugle and sat back down. Then 3 to 400 yards away all we could hear was a German Sheppard barking at us !! Ruff Ruff Ruff Ruff over and over again !!! We got frustrated and left the area !

That next day I was talking to Paul on the phone and I'M sure he will remember this conversation. I went on to tell him about this stupid dog barking at us and he stopped me right there and said Trav I believe that was an elk grunting at you the whole time !!! I had never heard a elk grunting like that from so far away !! He was obviously telling us to come his way. Honestly it was a good 300 to 400 yards from our location way down in a bowl. This was in solid bush for 30 miles in every direction so there was no way someone's dog would have been out there.

In all honesty it sounded exactly like a big dog !! At that point I had hunted and called elk for 30 years and had never experienced that sound !! Now while out calling I mimic that German Sheppard bark with my reed and bugle tube. I keep it simple and my barks are always the same.

Trav

[ElkNut1]

Travis, yes I do remember that conversation! (grin) You must do a lot of things right to have avoided hearing the Popping/Nervous Grunt for 30 years! (grin) I hate to count how many times I've heard it over the years! Thanks!

ElkNut1

[BrentLaBere]

Whatever the name of the sound in the situation, ive head elk bark in three different situations and in no way were they trying to say the same thing. Bugling back and forth at a bull, the bull barked before his bugle after raking a tree. Had a bull bark when trying to stalk him and tumbled a rock in the trees below him. He took off and never looked back. I had an elk barking in the timber below us for at least 5 minutes and it stopped after we saw a cow cross a saddle and run to the noise. I can only assume what each one meant because I was there to assess the situation. First encounter, my guess is the bull wanted me to show myself. Second bull was spooked by an unknown sound and was possibly warning others. Last one seemed like it was looking for other elk to respond and one lone cow did. Only my observation and there is no way I would be able to explain those with hearing the bark alone. I certainly agree with the tone of the call. I like how others have describe playing with the emotion in calls. Dictated by the intensity of the situation. With that being said, to simplify calling to a certain degree, it helps us discuss these different calling situations by labeling them. Not everyone agrees on the labels...

[Swede]

Brent your point is well taken. I don't think it makes any difference what we call the sound. I hear a bark. I don't really hear a grunt. To me the situations change and what is being expressed is different, but the same sound. I can account for any slight variation in sound as different voices, different terrain and vegetation and different distances.

[Tigger]

This thread = a good read!

I have heard this sound and for me it morphed from a nervous grunt into an alarm bark at the very end of the encounter.

Paul and Beendare, I am glad you addressed stopping elk with the nervous grunt. I want to use it. I plan on using it. But I am scared that what happened to Beendare will happen to me. He takes one step too many and I am left holding the bow back and then what? Without having used it, it is really hard to know how fast he will stop. Mid stride? One more step? Full brakes and skid to a stop?

[twinkieman]

[quote="Tigger"] it is really hard to know how fast he will stop. Mid stride? One more step? Full brakes and skid to a stop?
He will stop, the instant he hears it, do it when he is where you want him to stop.

[Beendare]

Yeah, they stop on a dime with the bark.

In the one case I mentioned, the bull was coming off of a knob on a steep downhill and though he stopped, his momentum slid him just past my opening. I tried to account for that but failed miserably.....good bull too. Dang.....i keep replaying that one. In hindsight, it was too thick. i should have let him go.....then set up the decoy and called him back.

[Medstudent2019]

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