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Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

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Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Swede » 10 19, 2017 •  [Post 1]

We have talked about frontal shots and if and under what circumstances a person would attempt it. Well what about taking a shot from the other end? Would you try it? Under what circumstances?

I would take the shot if it was open to me at thirty yards or under. The angle has to allow the arrow to travel far up and into the critter. The elk I shot the this year was quartering to me. The arrow went in right behind the front leg and exited the off side ham at the very back end. The elk went for less than 100 yards, but lived for nearly one hour. Depending on just which organs were impacted, I would expect nearly the same thing to happen with a T.H.S.

Yer turn. :D
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Fozziebear2000 » 10 19, 2017 •  [Post 2]

I would take a quartering away shot under the right circumstances. I doubt I would shoot from straight behind, even though that can be a fine shot in theory.
Swede, what organs were hit on the shot you made this year?


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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Elkhntr08 » 10 19, 2017 •  [Post 3]

Maybe with a .338 Win mag, but no THS with an arrow. Way too small a "hole" to hit.
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Swede » 10 19, 2017 •  [Post 4]

I did not autopsy the elk, but I am sure the arrow went through one lung, liver and went through the digestive track. In the process it cut many veins and arteries. The chest cavity was full of blood. Remember, hitting lungs is not like popping balloons. In fact I commonly hit only one lung shooting down from a tree. Arrows kill by causing massive hemorrhaging. When you look at the picture on the meat pole thread, you will see I had a pack frame in front of the animal. The frame was use to hide the intestines that were coming out. What the arrow did was not pretty.
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 10 19, 2017 •  [Post 5]

Yikes no. Possibly for a follow up arrow if I had any inclination initial shot wasn't solid.
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Swede » 10 19, 2017 •  [Post 6]

Out of the last 24 elk I have shot, only two afforded me a "follow-up shot". Why would a follow-up shot even be a consideration? The only question I would have is, will the arrow go deep enough to give the critter a tonsillectomy? If I believe he will be gagging on the B-Head, it is twang-thunk. Why does the direction the arrow travels to go into the boiler room matter? Why would it be better to shoot one facing you than the other way around? The THS will hit no bone for a very long way.
BTW, I admit, I have never tried that shot, so if anyone has had a bad experience on a well placed THS, please comment.
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Lefty » 10 19, 2017 •  [Post 7]

Never not an arrow or bullet.
Maybe has more to do with my dad pounding into us, that is not a shot. But a neck or head shot Yes
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Swede » 10 19, 2017 •  [Post 8]

Lefty's take is almost the opposite of mine. I would not take a head or neck shot except under rare, near perfect conditions. I shot a deer in the head with my rifle. I saw the lower jaw drop. He instantly headed away at full speed. I have read or heard of others that have had this experience. No more head shots after that. My friend shot a bull in the neck. It bled a little, but the hit was a little low and nonfatal. At least 1/2 of the neck looking at the animal broadside is in nonlethal territory.
Is the concern with a shot from the rear, we may hit the pelvis? We should know where it is and be able to effectively miss it. Is the problem a concern for causing a slow painful death?
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby stringunner » 10 19, 2017 •  [Post 9]

I did this shot on my buck this year by failing to hit my mark as the buck was hard quartering away from me. 2-3 inches off and it was a dead ringer in the pooper. It sent the buck down immediately. He got up moved about 30 yards then immediately laid back down. He was still alive after 30 minutes when I walked up on him and put another one in him. Was it a lethal shot? Yes. But it definitely did not kill him as fast as a good broad side shot or frontal shot would. There was zero blood either, which means had it been in thick country or had he gone further (and I bet an elk would have) the chances of recovery (because of no blood) would have been hindered. I don't know if it's a good shot or not. This is just my experience with this small buck. An elk is much larger and tougher. I'm undecided.
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Lefty » 10 19, 2017 •  [Post 10]

Swede
I think either shot requires knowledge of anatomy of the animal.
And perfect shot placement.
I need to state the heads hot from behind.
Otherwise small game headshots fron side angles

Big game going up steep hillsides, straight away can make a great shot
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 10 19, 2017 •  [Post 11]

Allow me to retort 8-). I never have and will not take a rear entry shot, dead center through the general area that body refuse passes "out" of. This event would have the propensity to push, carry, convoy, route, shepherd, persuade, chaperone, escort, coerce, and or pilot potential goop (bacteria laden or not, depending on the region I spose) up through the body cavity and quite possible into any portion of the meat I plan to harvest on the tip of an arrow or through the blast factor facilitated with a bullet. We as hunters more often than not I assume, do our best to not puncture the paunch of an animal when field dressing and spilling goop (good word huh :D) on to our future steaks, roasts, burger, etc....; the same with ensuring we keep that alimentary canal (poop chute) and associated parts (intestines, paunch, stomach, you know where I'm going here) completely separated and not gouged....to keep our meat clean as a whistle when we actually do a field dress/gutting of a critter. GOOP! I just wanted to use that word again. In addition to the goop factor, I submit that its probably not in the "high probability" category of hitting a known vital that would cause a quick death, and, the blood trail may be minimal (particularly with an arrow). Nope, this particular angle shot is not for me.
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Swede » 10 19, 2017 •  [Post 12]

We all have different experiences in shooting critters. I can fully understand Lefty's point and with the clarification fully agree. I was thinking of Stringunner's experience and one by Chuck Adams, if I remember correctly, when I started this thread. By no means is this an attempt to try to encourage someone to take a questionable shot, nor is it intended to questions anyone's ethics. Hopefully it can be a point of learning.
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Swede » 10 19, 2017 •  [Post 13]

RJ, Buddy. The tenderloin we ate in camp was taken from an animal that had its guts/intestines, and bladder severed with a razor sharp broad-head. That animal was on its back and gutted. The blood, juices, and whatever you want to call it were totally covering those tenderloins. Do you remember eating those loins? Since then I have eaten a fine rolled roast taken from the side and belly of that elk. I wish this was the only elk I ever cut into the guts on, but it happens. It often happens. It has never been a problem. My wife and I always cook game sufficiently to kill all bacteria.
As far as no blood trail is concerned. I have seen many times very little blood coming from an elk shot from a tree stand. The arrow goes in high and if it does not pass completely through, the blood trail will often be nearly non-existent. I will likely not get a complete pass through if I hit a rib on either side.
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 10 19, 2017 •  [Post 14]

Swede wrote:RJ, Buddy. The tenderloin we ate in camp was taken from an animal that had its guts/intestines, and bladder severed with a razor sharp broad-head. That animal was on its back and gutted. The blood, juices, and whatever you want to call it were totally covering those tenderloins. Do you remember eating those loins? Since then I have eaten a fine rolled roast taken from the side and belly of that elk. I wish this was the only elk I ever cut into the guts on, but it happens. It often happens. It has never been a problem. My wife and I always cook game sufficiently to kill all bacteria.
As far as no blood trail is concerned. I have seen many times very little blood coming from an elk shot from a tree stand. The arrow goes in high and if it does not pass completely through, the blood trail will often be nearly non-existent. I will likely not get a complete pass through if I hit a rib on either side.


I knew it! That explains the hoof I have growing out of the back of my head...... tainted meat! :lol:
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Swede » 10 19, 2017 •  [Post 15]

"Tainted meat" or something. That probably explains a lot of things. It affects a lot of us. Anyway I am enjoying the discussion. :D
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Roosiebull » 10 20, 2017 •  [Post 16]

It is for sure not a shot I would consider. I don't know how anyone in the heat of the moment picture where the arrow would have to go to effectively make it to vitals.

You may be able to think you have a good chance at gut and liver, but that isn't a shot to me. There is a lot of muscle hiding visual aids of anatomy, and the entrance is relatively small, which means any angle at all would matter.

Even if you have it all down, place the arrow perfect, you have muscle on both side potentially steering the arrow, and you have a giant stomach full of grass slowing your arrow down before you get to anything that will cause relatively quick death.

Bad shots happen with good angles, why tempt fate further?

It seems like a very irresponsible shot to take in my head.
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Roosiebull » 10 20, 2017 •  [Post 17]

I do have an experience with a shot that was ultimately the same, I stopped a bull for my buddy at about 15yds a few years ago (His first bull) apparently his mind froze, and he wasn't shooting, the bull wheeled and he shot, I think "oh crap!" I see the arrow burried almost to the fletchings in his hind.

We give it a few hours and got another buddy and started tracking (I left my bow in my pickup which was bad in a couple ways, one, I could have shot the bull later, two, someone broke into my pickup and stole it while we were tracking)

Anyways, about 3 hours of following a very poor bloodtrail through some of the finest country on the coast, we jumped the bull, my buddy didn't know at the time how to create a shot, he stood stationary saying he didn't have a shot...the bull trotted off.

It was now late afternoon and we decided to back out. The next morning we went back in, it had rained all night, and the little blood there was is now gone, we grid searched the area, all split up, and we finally met up around 10am. As we walked out bummed, I saw a game trail and said let's go look for a track, and there he was, 20 yrds down the trail.

He was able to salvage about half of that bull. The arrow passed through ham, didn't hit any bone, the guts slowed the arrow and it just barely made it to the liver, but not through it.

That is the same thing you will likely be up against even on a well executed ths.

I personally want to end it as quick as possible, of course things can and will happen on traditional good shots, but the odds go up exponentially on shots like a ths

The frontal shot is different because your arrow will not get slowed or steered before it contacts major organs. If you hit off center, low, or high, it can be a bad shot as well, that is why things have to be perfect for me to personally take a frontal shot. I have passed a bunch of frontal shots, and only took one myself. Most of the frontal shots I have passed have turned into broadside shots with patience.

I have never passed a Texas heart shot....because it's not a shot :lol:
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby scubohuntr » 10 20, 2017 •  [Post 18]

I would take one on a known wounded animal, with a rifle, if it was the only shot available before it got over a ridge. Other than that, no. It's probably the worst possible shot for meat damage, as you will be into one or both hindquarters, the tenderloins are toast, and depending on the angle, front quarters and/or backstraps are at risk. If you're taking a THS, it generally means angling upward (otherwise a rear neck shot would be available- still a really poor shot, but much less meat damage). On unwounded game, I only take heart/lung shots. Any other result is due to poor shooting on my part, which has been known to happen, unfortunately. On any animal with damage behind the diaphragm, I consider the tenderloins and liver contaminated and don't take them. I love tenderloins, but I really, really don't want to deal with E. coli. For the same reason, any bloodshot meat gets trimmed really deep.
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby ishy » 10 20, 2017 •  [Post 19]

Crappy idea...all the way around.
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Swede » 10 20, 2017 •  [Post 20]

I think Roosiebull's experience would be typical for a THS. I would not expect every THS to enter right at the anus. Shots could be a little lower and avoid the pelvis. I would not expect to hit tenderloins or back straps shooting from a tree stand, but the arrow would most likely enter and exit downward. If the angle was fairly steep, you could have the arrow exit before it went far enough forward to make a clean kill. The elk will die, but it could take hours and even a day with no blood trail.
I want to go sit at the campfire and discuss butchering critters. E. coli was mentioned earlier on this thread. It should get interesting seeing how we each handle our meat.
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Fridaythe13th » 10 20, 2017 •  [Post 21]

Great idea on a coyote, no extra holes. I'll pass in the archery world on deer or elk, but turkeys it's 1 of my favorite shots.
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Scorpyd shooter » 10 25, 2017 •  [Post 22]

Hunt
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Scorpyd shooter » 10 25, 2017 •  [Post 23]

Guy in wy said he lost 5 bulls shot right behind the shoulder, said now he shoots 10" back and higher, said he shot one from behind and it died fast
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Swede » 10 25, 2017 •  [Post 24]

Personally, I would take the THS if it was 25 yards or less, and open to me. Rather than going through the hole in the pelvis, I would go a little under. I guess that is not a real THS, but close enough. In any scenario I want a bone free path to the boiler room. I don't care if it takes out both lungs. I want massive hemorrhaging.
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Roosiebull » 10 25, 2017 •  [Post 25]

Swede wrote:Personally, I would take the THS if it was 25 yards or less, and open to me. Rather than going through the hole in the pelvis, I would go a little under. I guess that is not a real THS, but close enough. In any scenario I want a bone free path to the boiler room. I don't care if it takes out both lungs. I want massive hemorrhaging.

I think it's asking for a long track job with very little blood....the type of thing we try to avoid. I would be very surprised if you got a quick death from that shot.

is it fair or worth it to use a live elk as a test median? it just seems way too risky to try on a big live animal...yes, I realize that's my opinion :)
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Roosiebull » 10 25, 2017 •  [Post 26]

Scorpyd shooter wrote:Guy in wy said he lost 5 bulls shot right behind the shoulder, said now he shoots 10" back and higher, said he shot one from behind and it died fast

sounds like you were BS'ed by that guy, unless he got super unlucky and hit every one of those 5 where I hit mine this year. those types of stories always seem to be told by a certain type of person.
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Swede » 10 25, 2017 •  [Post 27]

Roosiebull wrote:is it fair or worth it to use a live elk as a test median? it just seems way too risky to try on a big live animal...yes, I realize that's my opinion


I have been proven wrong many on different things, but I don't think this is a big risk. As I admitted earlier, I have never tried it, but I have seen my arrow travel through the animal too many times to count. I saw where it went nearly full length of an elk this year. The key would be to miss the bone. I see hunters here claim they would take a head on shot at an elk looking their way. Even if they don't actually see you there is always movement they may catch. That seems at least as risky.
The deer Stringunner shot sure did not go far. I am not trying to spotlight him, as he said it was not his intent to shoot there, but that was where he hit. I agree that the blood trail would probably be minimal, but that is common with most tree stand kills. The arrow goes in high and if you do not get a complete pass through, the blood is not going to be on the trail for a long ways.

I remember when it was commonly thought all archery shots were extremely high risk and many or most rifle hunters thought it should be outlawed. Archery pioneers really had to campaign to get bow hunting approved.
BTW: Do you really have any evidence a THS is not effective? I consider myself open to better evidence than I have seen, but what I have seen indicates it would be humane and lethal.
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby otcWill » 10 26, 2017 •  [Post 28]

I wouldn't take that shot myself simply because I doubt it provides a great chance for a quick clean kill. Just about any other angle would give me higher odds. If I pass this and don't end up with an elk, I'm ok with that. If I took it and the animal went through unnecessary suffering or I lost it, I'd know I made a mistake.
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Roosiebull » 10 26, 2017 •  [Post 29]

Swede wrote:
Roosiebull wrote:BTW: Do you really have any evidence a THS is not effective? I consider myself open to better evidence than I have seen, but what I have seen indicates it would be humane and lethal.

I did write a lengthy reply in this thread earlier, which was my only experience with that type of shot. the frontal shot isn't near as risky, you are going directly into vitals, and of course it should be passed more than taken, because like you mentioned, potential movement by the elk. frontal shots are a bloody mess....shots from the rear? common sense says very little blood as the guts plug the hole.

i'm not saying it couldn't work, but it's never going to be the "new broadside" and I would imagine if one went far it would be mighty tough to find with lack of blood.

I know the deal, we all make our decisions ourselves at the moment. massive hemorrhaging will kill an elk of course, but collapsing both lungs is the very best and fastest way with an arrow, I will keep aiming for a clear shot at them.
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Swede » 10 26, 2017 •  [Post 30]

Here is something I don't understand guys. I shot my elk this year and the arrow went in right behind the front leg and exited the offside ham. It was a complete pass through as no bone was encountered. The elk went 100 yards before it was down for good. So what difference does it make if the arrow went in from the rear? If the elk or deer was facing directly away, the arrow would sever more veins and arteries as it passed closer to the heart.
I highly doubt I will ever have an opportunity to try this shot. I really don't like the downward angle from a tree stand. From whatever angle we shoo,t we need to be conscience of where the blades are going to be passing through. Regardless of the angle of the shot, we want our broad-head to pass through the heart lung region. There are other arteries too, I know, but hitting them is a dicey proposition from any significant distance. I think it is as simple as getting a broad-head through the vitals, and am not as concerned about a blood trail as much others are. That is probably because I have had so many very poor or nonexistent blood trails to follow.
I posted here about a year ago an e-mail I had from a doctor that "collapsing the lungs" has nothing to do with killing an animal. I will find it and repost. That is a common misunderstanding.
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Re: Ye Old Texas Heart Shot

Postby Swede » 10 26, 2017 •  [Post 31]

All of this illustrates a key point: it is BLEEDING that kills.

Often, I think, hunters image a tension pneumothorax killing a lung hit animal. If you are trying to cause a tension pneumothorax, then you better hope you are a great tracker.

No, we shoot lungs not due to their "balloon-like" qualities (and they aren't balloons anyway).

We shoot lungs because they are in the chest, and we shoot chests because that is where the blood is.

Sure, there's blood everywhere in a body, but it's not evenly distributed. Most is in the chest. Why? Because you have to run a lot of blood (enough for each pump of the left heart, ie 100% of the cardiac output) (or 50%, depending on how you see it) over a thin membrane to exchange gases, oxygen and carbon dioxide. That membrane IS the lungs. Lungs are vascular, and big.

Kidneys, for instance, get about 25% of the cardiac output, so hit one and it'll die faster than a femoral artery hit.

I visualize a hazy redness in the center of the animal, and in the center of that, a more intense redness. You want to hit in the center of that. That is the top of the heart, with fewer and smaller vessels the further you get away, even inside lungs.

Lungs have a great ability to heal, seal, and otherwise deal with holes, but they can't deal with massive hemorrhage.

So, my advice is to shoot for blood, not organs. Ronald Reagan got shot in the dang heart, but not with a big enough caliber to poke a hole in the chamber. He lived.

They've got to bleed to die quickly, in view (unless their movement is impaired, like a spine or brain hit). Nothing else will die quickly anytime today. Not a gut hit, not a lung hit;
not without hemorrhage.

Let's frame the question in another way: how do "one lung" hits survive?

One thing is FOR SURE: they didn't bleed enough to die, right?

Therein lies the answer.

A deer or person or whatever might or might not die of pneumothorax (usually, they live).

A deer or person or whatever might survive a ruptured diaphragm. (Usually, they do die,p eventually).

A deer or person or whatever might survive a flail chest.

Deer, humans, and all of God's creatures, though, die if they bleed enough. They die quickly. Witness: the odd femoral, carotid, or kidney shot.

People don't understand how vascular lungs are and they overestimate how they are like balloons. They are nor balloon! They are "internal gils". The pumping action of our chest and abdominal muscles push gas and blood over the "gils" but they don't ever "pop".

Most guys understand gils, and that fish live for a while out of water. They can't pump efficiently out here, but kind of still work, for a while. Lungs are just modified gils! Ask Darwin.

But, to make gils or lungs work, you need both gas and blood. Blood is what we are after.


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Shooting down from a tree stand I have had many one lung kills. The key is severing many veins and arteries.
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