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Why Settle For Less?

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Why Settle For Less?

Postby Swede » 10 23, 2017 •  [Post 1]

It is Monday morning and I want to start another conversation. Here is something for us to chew on.
So you go out and hunt hard and come back with a spike or a cow. Good for you, but you really wanted a big bull. Down deep you wanted a wall hanger monster, so why did you shoot that spike?

Maybe that is a fair question for a few hunters, but for most of it the answer is simple. We are doing our best just to get anything legal. We take what we can get. With archery OTC public hunting running at 10% success it is never a given we will get Any elk.
A few (10+) years ago it was taking me 10 days on average to get an elk. Coming home empty handed was hardly a thought. My wife would give away all of the old meat to make room in the freezer. Not any more. It is taking me about 40 days per elk and there is no guarantee. So My real question is can we really expect to improve our hunting success? With all of your bows or blunder busts, bugles and books can you reliably get-er-dun? What is the prospect for a better result? How will you make it happen?

Are we really going to see elk hunting continue to get harder and harder?
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Re: Why Settle For Less?

Postby Tigger » 10 23, 2017 •  [Post 2]

I am rather new to the archery elk game, but I have shot 2 bulls in 3 years and had many more opportunities. Passed up a few cows. But I am perfectly willing to eat my tag. Once you come to peace with that, hunting is a lot more fun I think.
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Re: Why Settle For Less?

Postby olympushunt » 10 23, 2017 •  [Post 3]

Tigger wrote:I am rather new to the archery elk game, but I have shot 2 bulls in 3 years and had many more opportunities. Passed up a few cows. But I am perfectly willing to eat my tag. Once you come to peace with that, hunting is a lot more fun I think.


Tigger......ding ding ding...we have a winner. You nailed it. Success to some isn't defined by how many elk you kill or if you killed an elk "that" year. My elk kill stats would be much higher if I took any elk but I am at peace eating my tag because my objectives and "success" at said objectives are not defined by blood shed. Who is more successful....the guy who kills 10 elk in 10 years (cows, calves, big bulls, little bulls, mediocre bulls) or the guy who kills 2 monsters in that 10 year span but had opportunities to kill "an" elk most every year? I don't consider myself unsuccessful (even if the Oregon Department of F&W does) if I didn't put meat in the freezer. It is about having fun and if you don't put the price of an elk kill as admission into the fun category you will be successful most years.
This year I took a cow...my buddy was shocked and even said he was "proud" of me for doing it. I had to laugh. I never have before but this year with limited time to hunt and a lack of meat in the freezer I had an itchy finger. A lot of years people ask me what I am holding out for this upcoming season and my answer is almost always the same....."It is mood dependant." If I don't like the way that spike is looking at me...he might get an arrow sent his way. lol. I always have fun though.
So I'm not sure if it is settling for less to take a spike or cow if your objectives are met. I'm not sure your question is being answered though Swede. Are you asking if due to poorer hunting are you less likely to hold out for a big bull?
I think hunting will get harder and harder.
Hunting success can be improved upon. A) Adjust your "goals" or "Success" definition. B) Dedicate more effort/resources to your craft or C) A combo of the two.
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Re: Why Settle For Less?

Postby Swede » 10 23, 2017 •  [Post 4]

olympushunt wrote: I'm not sure your question is being answered though Swede. Are you asking if due to poorer hunting are you less likely to hold out for a big bull?


Yes, to some extent. Also, maybe some are beginning to realize elk hunting is not all that simple or easy.

This past season I wanted to get a good bull. I am not speaking of a 300+ class animal, but a 5X5 or better. I finally shot a spike four days before the season closed. It was the first shot opportunity I had in Idaho and none of the other hunters in camp had any elk on the ground. I am more than pleased with my spike. I did not wait for a bigger animal because I realized the 5X5 or better was becoming less and less likely.

Oly, your answer is as good as any. I just wanted to see how people thought about the situation. The question probably does not apply if you got what you went out for. I find it odd that people say they are satisfied to enjoy the scenery and enjoy the fresh air, but paid $600+ for a tag they had less than a 15% chance of filling. I always believe I can fill my tag, but it is not easy, at least it has not been lately.
I will probably be the first to buy a 2018 hunting license and apply for a special elk tag and deer tag. If I do not get lucky with the draw, I will plan to get an OTC tag. Like every other year, I plan to fill my elk tag, but will not hold out for old mossy-horn.
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Re: Why Settle For Less?

Postby elkaholicid » 10 24, 2017 •  [Post 5]

Great topic Swede! I think there are a few different layers to the answers to your questions.

1. Down deep you wanted a wall hanger monster, so why did you shoot that spike? We all go into each season with high hopes and a plan to bring home a certain size elk whether it's a cow, a spike, a raghorn or a herd bull. As the season progresses and we gather the info from what is happening during our hunts, those plans may change, For others, it may be that they got into a cool hunt or something happened that they changed their mind right then and there on what they wanted. I have shot smaller bulls than I had wanted in the past because it was just a "really cool" hunt. Maybe it was the scenery, or the bull had a cool look or bugle to him. Ther are a few different reasons. The one thing I am tired of hearing or reading is that person that starts their post with "It's not the biggest bull on the mountain." as if they were trying to justify their harvest. If you're not proud of it, you shouldn't have pulled the trigger.

2. So My real question is can we really expect to improve our hunting success? My answer to this questions is YES! I feel that by becoming a student and learning everything you can about elk, their behaviors, their Biology, why they do what they do, and what they do during different parts of the year will improve your understanding of what is going on while out in the field and in turn, help to make the right choices. Knowledge is the power that can increase your chance of success. I realize we are talking about animals and anything can happen. But studying their behavior, the area you're hunting and what they do in different situations gives the hunter the ability to adjust their game plan on the fly. Knowing what elk will do in your area when weather comes in, or if hunting pressure increases means you as the hunter will put you in the better spot of locating the elk which in turn, increases your chance for success. Another equation to this is learning their language. And I'm not talking about just learning a couple of bugles and a cow call. I'm talking about learning their whole entire language. A lot of people I talk with at sports shows don't understand that cow sounds and bugles have different meanings. They merely think a mew is a mew and a bugle is a bugle but then can't understand why the elk won't do what they want them to. Another component to this is that many hunters go out into the woods without a game plan. They don't think about what or how they are going to interact with the elk. They simply are out there just walking around hoping to find an elk or hear a bugle with the approach of "I'll figure it out once I locate the elk." That's too late! Study, Learn, and Practice are the keys to increasing success.

3. With all of your bows or blunder busts, bugles and books can you reliably get-er-dun? This is a loaded question. Will just buying the latest bow or reading the hottest book help increase a persons chance of success. Only if they practice with those tools. If a person buys a really fast car, does that mean they will win the race? No! they have to know how to drive. Same principal applies to hunting elk. You can buy and have the best gear on the market, but without knowledge, practice and a game plan, that gear will not increase your chances one bit.

4. What is the prospect for a better result? How will you make it happen? I think the prospect for better results is really high. I know several individuals that harvest elk, 5 points or better, every year. Why is that? It's because they have taken the time and have the passion to learn and hone their skill. Most people aren't willing to put in the time to do the work. For many, it's simply a time of the year for them to go out into the woods in hopes of harvesting an animal. These are the same individuals that pick up their bow, or their calls, a couple of weeks before the season starts and then can't understand why they weren't successful. The second part of the question, how will you make it happen, is a repeat of what I said up above. It takes dedication, work and practice to become consistent.

5. Are we really going to see elk hunting continue to get harder and harder? If a person does nothing to change their skill set or get better then the answer is yes. Elk hunting will continue to get harder and harder for them. I'm not saying that becoming a student of elk will make it easy, but I am saying that by putting in the work, you can increase your chance of success. Nothing about elk hunting is easy. But imagine if you truly understand their behavior, the area you're hunting, their vocalizations and how to respond in different situations, do you think that the number of interactions you had with elk would increase? Now, if you had an increase in the number of interactions and opportunities to harvest an elk each year, do you think your chance of success would increase as well?

But then again, what does the term "success" mean to each person? For some, it is harvesting an elk and coming home to post the pictures on social media. For others, it is the up close and personal interactions with elk. I think that for people to really answer your question, they must first define what success means to them.
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Re: Why Settle For Less?

Postby Swede » 10 24, 2017 •  [Post 6]

Elkaholicid, I would like every one here to read your answers. You have a lot of good advise. You brought up some thought on calling that I want to chase some more on another thread. I will name it Calling For Less. Let me get your ideas and other thoughts there.
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Re: Why Settle For Less?

Postby elkaholicid » 10 24, 2017 •  [Post 7]

Swede wrote:Elkaholicid, I would like every one here to read your answers. You have a lot of good advise. You brought up some thought on calling that I want to chase some more on another thread. I will name it Calling For Less. Let me get your ideas and other thoughts there.


Thank you, sir!

Hmmm...... a thread on calling. That is a whole nother topic that I could write a book for a response on. My main thoughts on calling are that most people call too much and don't understand what the elk are saying, let alone what they are saying back. I've had countless discussions with people where they have explained a scenario they had gotten into with a bull and then asked me what they should have done. Usually, I get the same response back when I start asking questions like "what type of bugle did the bull answer you with?" or "what mindset was the bull in?" The standard response is usually "what do you mean?" "The bull bugled back at me."

They don't understand that there are different bugles that have different meanings. Same goes for cow vocalizations. Calling is not just walking around the woods making noise. There needs to be a specific plan to what you are saying and recognizing what is being said in response. If a person doesn't know what is being said back to them, how can they possibly know what to say back? Bottom line is they can't. Sure, they may get lucky and get into a hot bull that will come to pretty much anything but what about all those other times? Why not take the time to learn the vocalizations to maximize the time in the field and increase the number of call-ins. Increased number of call-ins means more opportunities which results in a higher level of success and increased consistency of filling tags.

I will certainly chime in when you start that thread.
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Re: Why Settle For Less?

Postby Swede » 10 24, 2017 •  [Post 8]

Elkaholicid, I have come to think we are over complicating calling. We are ascribing to a stupid animal a sophisticated language they really don't have. We as hunters are doing the same thing Disney does with their cartoon characters or we are like those that feel bad when Bambi loses his mother.
Simply put, different elk sound different. They react or are driven by impulse, biological urge, or instinct. I understand bulls call cows, they try to locate other bulls in the area, they react negatively when another bull gets too close to their cows, etc., etc., but they don't have a language. Of coarse if what I am saying is true, you and Elknut are like the Wizard of Oz and the rest of us are taking on the role of Dorothy, or the Tin Man or ... :lol: Please explain where I am wrong.
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Re: Why Settle For Less?

Postby elkaholicid » 10 24, 2017 •  [Post 9]

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! LOL. Sorry! I had to.

A stupid animal that sometimes tests the very limits of our whits and fortitude.

I am never one to say a person is wrong or right based on their beliefs. My feeling and thought process, based on my experience out in the woods, is that they do have a language. It's not a complex one, but it is made up of different sounds. Of course, the term "language" is a human term that we have placed on the sounds we have heard. Quick question, if elk don't have a "language", why not just make only one sound while out hunting? Simple answer? Because elk don't just make one sound. Also, the term "language" in regards to elk goes beyond what we can hear. Their body language is also used as a language to express their mood as well.

I do agree with you that different elk, sound different, but if you focus on the basic construct of the call you'll notice that they have the same rhythm and cadence structure based on the emotion they are trying to convey. I also agree that they are driven by biological impulses. But again I have a simple question, what triggers those impulses and reactions? Is it a sound? A smell? Something they see? Also, why do they do different actions based on the different sounds they hear?
My opinion is that people only associate the term "language" with a complex mainframe of words and sentence structure. "Language" can be represented by something as simple as sounds, and gestures to communicate feelings.

Do I believe that elk have a complex language? No, I don't. I do believe that elk do have different sounds and variations of sounds that convey different emotions. If they didn't have these variations, how would a bull let another bull know that he is upset vs. merely trying to locate? Or a cow communicate with her calf versus communicating with another cow? Basically, these are done through different variations and tone inflections. It's just like asking your child to "come here". When you add a little emotion or tone inflection to the same phrase, your child realizes your mindset and that they had better get moving your direction. In simple terms, that's what an elks "language" is. It is adding emotion and inflection to different parts of the basic sound to convey a different emotion.

I am not here saying anyone is right or wrong. Elk hunting is a deep passion of mine and I am merely passing along my thoughts and beliefs based on 30 years of experience bowhunting for elk and studying them for almost 2 decades.
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Re: Why Settle For Less?

Postby Swede » 10 24, 2017 •  [Post 10]

Elkaholicid, I actually agree with you, but fear we are making calling seem too complex and precise. You and I have called in elk when we made some lousy sounds. Oops, I wish I could get that one back, but it worked.
I think over calling is huge, and laughed to myself when I saw a hunter come by me, when I was just getting back to my pickup. He must have had at least ten different expensive cow calls on a necklace. He also had a grunt tube hanging around his neck. He did not have an elk down, so I suspect he needed an I phone app and a Playbook to be effective.
Calling is a good tool if used correctly. We often have hunters say that we need to know what call to make and when. It is also good to know when to stay quiet and let your last call do its work.
The difference between the best caller and poorest caller is just 20 yards. Those 20 yards are he ones he needs to come so you can get a good shot at him. Consider when the bull hangs up, what you should do to get him a little closer. Another elk call may be the worst thing you can do. Now he can clearly see there is no elk where the sound is coming from. The bull walks back and forth and sees nothing, so he exits the area. Game over.
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Re: Why Settle For Less?

Postby elkaholicid » 10 24, 2017 •  [Post 11]

Swede, I agree completely agree with you. Most people do call way too much, are not patient enough, and do not use calling the right way. I do have a simple approach to calling and merely teach to recognize the sounds that the elk are making. The sounds that I actually use and really just a few. It's how those sounds are presented and strung together that is key.
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Re: Why Settle For Less?

Postby Scorpyd shooter » 10 24, 2017 •  [Post 12]

I hunted 8 of 11 days in bighorns, got snowed on 4 times, rained a couple times, I saw and experienced almost everything I had read about elk hunting.
I saw two bulls fight over forty cows, snuck in on two bulls bugling, saw 3 satillite bulls circling the herd, had a shot at herd bull when he came down hill to gather cows to get them away from other bull,but a branch was in the way.
Stalked a lone bull, hit it not where I aimed, trailed it 3 miles in 2 days, it walked into another elk zone.
Saw elk nearly everyday, saw couple other bulls get packed out. I also almost got a shot at nice five point the first night.
I had 3 days left after loosing tracks on bull, decided with even more Hunters going into that area I was pretty much wore out and decided to come home and get back to work.
I wanted to stay to try to at least get meat, but figured I had a good hunt, my friend said heck some guys hunt 10 years and never got a shot.
Best thing is I feel younger and stronger, I'm 60, now feel much younger, it was the toughest physical thing I've ever done
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