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Calling For Less

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Calling For Less

Postby Swede » 10 24, 2017 •  [Post 1]

As many of you know, this year I spent most of the month of September in Idaho hunting out of RJ's camp. I had a great time there and appreciated RJ and company, and got to see how they do things. One of the things I saw is that RJ is enthusiastic and does not give up. He was never down on himself, or on hunting, even though he has started to question why the hunting in his area is not producing. The truth it appears to me even though there are plenty of elk around, it has never been a great producing area.
I did not go out with RJ to hunt, but from listening to him, I can say he can call with the best of the callers and he knows how to do it effectively. He is a better caller than I am. He and his friend were into elk many days, but just could not get a good shot. Why? Does RJ need to read another book? Will getting a better grunt tube help? Do you suppose he is careless and messes up his opportunities? So what is missing? What do you think could be the missing piece?
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Re: Calling For Less

Postby elkaholicid » 10 24, 2017 •  [Post 2]

My main thoughts on calling are that most people call too much and don't understand what the elk are saying, let alone what they are saying back. (Not saying that is the case with RJ)
I've had countless discussions with people where they have explained a scenario they had gotten into with a bull and then asked me what they should have done. Usually, I get the same response back when I start asking questions like "what type of bugle did the bull answer you with?" or "what mindset was the bull in?" The standard response is usually "what do you mean?" "The bull bugled back at me." They don't understand that there are different bugles that have different meanings. Same goes for cow vocalizations. Calling is not just walking around the woods making noise. There needs to be a specific plan to what you are saying and recognizing what is being said in response. If a person doesn't know what is being said back to them, how can they possibly know what to say back? Bottom line is they can't. Sure, they may get lucky and get into a hot bull that will come to pretty much anything but what about all those other times? Why not take the time to learn the vocalizations to maximize the time in the field and increase the number of call-ins. Increased number of call-ins means more opportunities which results in a higher level of success and increased consistency of filling tags.

Another mistake I often hear from hunters is that they set up, call for a little bit and then decide there is nothing there because they didn't get a bugle response back. When they gather their gear and start to move off, they bump an elk that was coming in silent. Just because you don't hear a bugle back, does not mean the elk aren't responding. A bull making his way to you is a response. A lot of people only strain their ears to hear a bugle or a cow call in response to their calling. What about the sound of a twig snap, or the sound of brush, or a hoof hitting a rock? These are all sounds of responses and ultimately the ones we want to hear as that means a bull is coming into our calling. Be patient!

People also don't pay attention to what is going on around them while out hunting. Are the birds and squirrels making noise around you or is the forest quite? I've listened to people on the hillside that are doing their best rendition of a whole herd of elk complete with multiple cows and a few bulls having a field day when every other creature in the forest is not saying a word. What do the forest animals know that we don't? Perhaps there is a predator in the area and the animals have gone quiet until that predator leaves the area. Or, perhaps the hunting pressure is really high and those elk are in the heavy timber and calling with less volume while the hunter is out in the open letting their calling be heard 2 states away. Your calling needs to match your surrounding. If the forest is quiet then your calling needs to be toned down and scaled back. Trust me, you'll know when there is a hot cow in the area. The bull will be bugling but they may be in heavy timber as mentioned above. I've had elk before that would not answer me until I was within 150 yards of them in these heavy timber pockets and lowered the volume on my bugles. Volume is not always the answer!

Using the Elks' vocalizations and understanding their meanings will only increase the effectiveness of a calling set up. It's like having a conversation with someone that doesn't understand your language. Sure you can have a conversation, but both sides will be confused as to what the conversation is about and what the intent of the conversation is. Also, remember one important thing when calling. LESS IS MORE! Match the rhythm, cadence and amount of calling you are getting in return.
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Re: Calling For Less

Postby Tigger » 10 24, 2017 •  [Post 3]

Best guess on RJ's problem is that he wasn't driving the right hunting vehicle. If he had Big Red outfitted with some hunting accessories he would have scored for sure!
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Re: Calling For Less

Postby Swede » 10 24, 2017 •  [Post 4]

elkaholicid wrote: Calling is not just walking around the woods making noise.


That is great. A lot to chew on there. In RJ's case, I think Tigger nailed it.
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Re: Calling For Less

Postby lamrith » 10 24, 2017 •  [Post 5]

Swede wrote: Does RJ need to read another book?

Wait, hold on, when did RJ learn to read?
Swede wrote:
elkaholicid wrote: Calling is not just walking around the woods making noise.

That is great. A lot to chew on there. In RJ's case, I think Tigger nailed it.

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Re: Calling For Less

Postby Swede » 10 24, 2017 •  [Post 6]

lamrith wrote:Wait, hold on, when did RJ learn to read?


I get your point. Playing a audio book in Big Red is not exactly "reading" is it?
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Re: Calling For Less

Postby ElkNut1 » 10 24, 2017 •  [Post 7]

Hmm, instead of second guessing what RJ may need assistance on it would probably be best to hear from Him! He's most likely the one that knows the hurdle he hasn't quite figured out yet. I'd love to hear his thoughts! We all know it's not just about calling, good setups & wind can be uncontrollable at times where many of these bulls are located!

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Re: Calling For Less

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 10 24, 2017 •  [Post 8]

Sorry so slow chiming in folks. The new J-O-B has me busting my hump. The area I hunt in N ID has gotten consistently worse over the past few years (its very similar to what has happened in NW MT where I grew up and cut my elk hunting teeth in the 70s/80s). Some of it is the wolves changing the elk's mannerisms (where/how they feed and bed making it more of a challenge to get to them) including how they vocalize but a large piece of the puzzle is that even the locals do not hunt where I normally do. You see, its oftentimes impossible draw your bow back in the jungles I've been hunting let alone have a clear shot in the spots I hunt where I know there are elk. Imagine the thickest cra@ you've hunted in, or, refused to hunt in and that is what much of my area is like. The problem/challenge is, is that I have a hard time walking away from an area that I know holds a good elk pop (although it is certainly been declining over the past few years) to scout and head to a new area. One of the beautiful things about my area is that I very, very seldom run into other hunters in the "spots" I hunt..... That is partially by design on my part, and, partially because again...the locals and most right minded hunters won't waste their time there due to the challenges of the terrain. Yes, I get into them, understand elk language, "say" the right things as the situation dictates and know absolutely when to keep my horn silent, but in all honestly, its like trying to hit a sparrow with a rock sometimes, from across a draw, throwing left handed when you're right handed. We'll see how it shakes out but my primary hunting partner and I are seriously looking at some other areas either farther south in the spud state, or, even into other elk states. What I do know is that if I were to join any/many of you in some of the more affable areas/spots you hunt, I would call in elk for you to kill, I've been doing it for a coon's age, ...;). Its all good though as I would rather be out having conversations with wapiti than doing almost anything else. I'll spend a bit of time in the WA late archery season to try to put some quantity meat in the freezer but who knows where I'll land next year during that most wonderful time of the year, the elk rut... Carry on gentlemen, carry on.
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Re: Calling For Less

Postby Swede » 10 24, 2017 •  [Post 9]

I do not think there is anything wrong with RJ's calling ability, and if he knew of something, he would have cured it long before now. I was being totally facetious when I suggested he could read another book or get a better grunt tube. I too will look for RJ's thoughts, but will be surprised if he suggests calling more or calling less is the answer. I doubt he has not tried some bugle sound or cow call sufficiently to have that figured out.
Risking sounding blasphemes to some, let me suggest that calling is not the best tool in an elk hunters pack for every place and time. It Is certainly not the only tool, and if we continue to use it in an area year after year with poor results, we meet Einstein's definition of insane. To me the answer is obvious. RJ either should change hunting locations or try a new technique.

Everything above in this post was written before RJ"s post. I saw RJ's post after I hit submit. I certainly have nothing but the highest regards for RJ and his hunting friends. There is no doubt he can call well enough. His hunting area is beyond challenging.
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Re: Calling For Less

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 10 24, 2017 •  [Post 10]

No foul, no harm Swede. One thing I have learned from seasoned hunters as yourselves is that considering/asking/discussing the "hard" questions each year either breeds success in subsequent seasons (spawns the hmmm factor) or confirms what we are as hunters at our roots. This is why I pay you the big bucks as a Wapiti Talk MOD, to keep things rolling and make folks think :lol:
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Re: Calling For Less

Postby ElkNut1 » 10 25, 2017 •  [Post 11]

RJ, I hear you brother, I've been in areas where I've called bulls into 10 yards & no shot because of the thick terrain & under brush, it was literally impossible to take a shot! Carry on Sir!

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Re: Calling For Less

Postby Roosiebull » 10 26, 2017 •  [Post 12]

there are just so dang many factors, and so many things need to go right to call and kill a bull. just bad luck alone can keep you in the rut, wind is a big one, and many other variables. calling isn't the only way, but it's a good one.
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Re: Calling For Less

Postby ElkNut1 » 10 27, 2017 •  [Post 13]

When hunting thick country as RJ & I do & semi thick country such as here in west central ID it's by far easier to call a bull to you or call your way to a bull than trying a silent stalk. Bottom line, you seriously have to know what you're doing. There's a big difference in calling at elk & talking to elk! This is how we take elk every year, rare is the bull taken by slipping in silently, our surrounding do not cater to this in most of the country. Calling in bulls is what we feel is the ultimate challenge plus it's so much fun! (grin)

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Re: Calling For Less

Postby Swede » 10 27, 2017 •  [Post 14]

ElkNut1 wrote:Calling in bulls is what we feel is the ultimate challenge plus it's so much fun! (grin)


In all seriousness, I agree. I think tree stand hunting elk is the least challenging. With both hunting styles you have to understand some basics, but there are many more things to go wrong when you are calling. There is far less uncertainty when you are in the place of your choosing high above the ground.
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Re: Calling For Less

Postby Kentrek » 10 27, 2017 •  [Post 15]

Hunting the thick stuff is just plain hard.... when your under 30 yards your noises need to be perfect....the shooter has to be perefect....the wind needs to be perfect....

Id never be bummed about being unsuccessful in the thick stuff if your having fun.....if your not even getting on elk itd be time to move but just cause its tough hunting is no reason to get down

If it was easy it wouldnt be worth doing
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Re: Calling For Less

Postby Swede » 10 28, 2017 •  [Post 16]

I certainly agree with the basics of what Kentrek wrote, but also see more to the situation. In the opening post, I asked what you thought was the problem for RJ and company in that they were not getting elk. I asked some rhetorical questions, knowing full well RJ knows in principle all he needs to know. He and his friends are hunting as hard or harder than other hunters, and they all have excellent equipment. I think I posted somewhere it appears RJ and friends have filled one elk tag from about 25 in Idaho. To my way of thinking the problem, if we agree he and his friends really don't want to come home year after year with no elk, is the area he is hunting. The elk hang back in the heavy 15-20 foot high brush, and they will not come out and expose themselves. Even a second hunter out front will very rarely have an open shot.
I am sorry, but I just don't buy the idea that people invest thousands of dollars, thousands of hours over the years and practice for chasing elk, but they are satisfied to come back home empty. That line comes from the losers playbook. I know I am very disappointed and feel bummed. I put Everything I have into all of my hunts, and they mean a lot to me. I do my best every year and don't give up. I would not even want to hunt with someone that does not care. I enjoy hunting with people that talk around the campfire about how to make the next day a success if today was not. Just my values.
So I agree, if it was easy it would not be worth doing, but there is a time to regroup and plan a way forward where we as hunters can put more elk where they belong: in the freezer. I want RJ and his friend to be hard on the elk population wherever they hunt. I hope you are hard on the elk population too. It gives us a lot more to talk about here.
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Re: Calling For Less

Postby Kentrek » 10 28, 2017 •  [Post 17]

Swede wrote:
I am sorry, but I just don't buy the idea that people invest thousands of dollars, thousands of hours over the years and practice for chasing elk, but they are satisfied to come back home empty. That line comes from the losers playbook. I know I am very disappointed and feel bummed. I put Everything I have into all of my hunts, and they mean a lot to me. I do my best every year and don't give up. I would not even want to hunt with someone that does not care. I enjoy hunting with people that talk around the campfire about how to make the next day a success if today was not. Just my values.

.


I think your miss understanding things, respectfully. Theres a difference between not careing and being satisfied with "the hunt"....in my eyes if you put everything into a hunt then theres no reason to be disapointed..dont let success weigh you down to the point of getting bummed becausd the thick stuff will eat your spirit up in a hurry and mistakes will compound...just like picking up gals at the bar, no one likes the desperate guy. Thats not to say you get lazy in your hunting tho....you bet im strategizing every second of the way...i pick every encounter apart.. and then move on to the next, but the key is to move on to the next...its a mental game. Staying positive is huge.


I think people absolutely go elk hunting for the chase...thats why trophy hunting and tradition hunting has evolved (really just another form of trophy hunting). The thick stuff is just so addictive with the monsters it hides...you never know when that 400 inch droptine bull is gona step out of the jing jangs.....which realistically is RJ's biggest problem...but heck im rite there with him !

Why oh why didnt i take up golf....

Just another point of view, hope this helps
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Re: Calling For Less

Postby Swede » 10 28, 2017 •  [Post 18]

We are all wired a little different and that is fine. I appreciate Kentrek's point of view. Here is an article I had published years ago. I hope you can enjoy it.

TAG SOUP RECIPE

Have you ever considered what to do with all those unfilled game tags, after the year’s hunting seasons are all completed? Every season I hunt with several close friends and family. We can fill a few of our tags from the twenty or more we have purchased. Many tags were part of a “Sportsman’s Package” and we kept all of them in our pockets “just in case”.
I would like to shoot a cougar someday, and a respectable buck deer would be great, but I still pass on bears nearly every year. Mainly I am after an elk and the bigger the better. My hunting buddies have similar priorities, but we vary on the details.
I am the oldest person in our party and I have a lot of experience with unfilled tags. Therefore I have developed my recipe for making tag soup. After all no one I know recycles expired tags, but we sure hate to see them go to waste. So what better way to utilize that treasure, which must soon give way to our hopes and dreams for the next year, than a nice tasty Tag Soup?

1. The main ingredient in this soup, of course, is genuine Unfilled Tag(s). The best are those which you applied for year after year before receiving. They were the ones you coveted and that excited you the most when you were notified of your “success” in the state drawing. They are also the ones that produced your highest hopes and you spent the most time getting prepared to try and fill. But best of all, they are so sweet and rare. Common or “over the counter tags” are alright for an average tag soup, but never use cheap ones. Cheap tags, if they can be found, need to be kept and framed as they appear to be going extinct.
2. These next ingredients, for your tag soup, are those that set it apart from the usual. I like to go to my store room of memories and gather Fresh Tracks, Rubs, Well Used Wallows and even Droppings. The bigger and fresher the better. Add to these the Sights and Sounds of Escaping Trophies and Missed Opportunities. The really good ingredients don’t take much aging to become very impressive.
3. Now add in the broth. I prefer mine to be a little bitter, so I use Tears of Regret that I have added a splash of Envy to.Tears of Disappointment or Disillusionment will do. Don’t worry about adding too much. Put in as much as you can handle. To get this broth going, bring to a slow boil and let simmer a while. Then as you keep that tag soup simmering you can read magazine articles that contain pictures of successful hunters with big cheesy grins, or go to the internet and read and view threads that depict hunters with great trophies, like the ones you wanted. But my favorite comes from friends who just can’t wait for me to see and hear about the big one they got.
4. After my tag soup has simmered a while I throw in the seasoning. I use it for that added touch that adds to its uniqueness. If the soup is mainly for me I like to use Blame. The Department of Fish and Wildlife will do in a hurry, but there are a lot of other possibilities. For the soup I share with my friends, I prefer Excuses. “My Arrow Hit a Limb”, “The Animal Jumped the String”, or “The Wind Suddenly Shifted” are great old standbys, but don’t limit yourself to these. Use your imagination. Each hunting season is unique and your tag soup should be also.

A note of caution: I feel compelled to inform you that tag soup doesn’t keep very well. It can’t be eaten after you start planning and preparing for your next hunt. Hunters by nature are eternal optimists, and we don’t have long before last year’s disappointments must give way to the next season’s hopes. Tag soup gets stale quick when you are filled with anticipation. Ok?
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Re: Calling For Less

Postby Roosiebull » 10 29, 2017 •  [Post 19]

pretty dang funny Swede :lol:

make sure you cook your cougar and bear tag soups to well done, trich is nothing to mess around with. also, start with a good product if you want to end with a good product. a tag that has been in your wallet for 11 months, when it stays damp for weeks at a time, gets warm and stays warm, has a bunch of exposure to natural gas, etc.

keep it clean and cold all year, unless all you care about is hanging it up on the wall after the season.
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Re: Calling For Less

Postby Lefty » 11 04, 2017 •  [Post 20]

Good stuff guys!!
elkaholicid: thats the way it is!!!!

Sometimes with everything coming together it may only take one thing.
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