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Federal Regulations

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Federal Regulations

Postby Swede » 01 10, 2018 •  [Post 1]

I did not get involved in the backcountry thread as it seemed to be generating more heat that light. But there are some important things to consider when planning to camp and live a while in the National Forest. I know many of us have done things for years. Usually we were playing by the rules, but sometimes maybe not. Do you really know the rules? I would encourage anyone that is planning to camp for any significant amount of time to read the Code of Federal Regulations Title 36 in the pertinent chapters. You are in for some surprises.
Did you know spitting in a campground is illegal unless you are using a designated receptacle authorized for the purpose, or abandoning personal property in the Forest is ill eagle? Did you know you have the right to some firewood and need no permit. "Small quantities of material needed by transients while in the forest may also be taken without permit; subject to such rules as may be prescribed pursuant to § 261.70." 36 CFR 261.6 and 7 I believe are general "Prohibitions".
At any rate if you are going to camp in the Forest for any amount of time over a week or are planning to leave things in the Forest, it would pay to read the pertinent CFRs and talk to a knowledgeable Forest officer and get their name.
This is just FYI.
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Re: Federal Regulations

Postby Lefty » 01 10, 2018 •  [Post 2]

Swede wrote:,....This is just FYI.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

How about photography and video permits.
Other than outfitters I have never seen anyone with certified weed free hay.
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Re: Federal Regulations

Postby Swede » 01 10, 2018 •  [Post 3]

Lefty, you make a good point. Often there are legal violations that do not get prosecuted. I hated prosecuting people so I tried to get compliance where I could. The Forest Service is really not into going after every person that over stays the legal limit or digs out a bush for a transplant back home. But they do have an evidence locker and will take vehicles back to the Ranger Station and impound it.
I have seen a number of items in those lockers and law enforcement officers are just waiting for someone to come and say the stuff belongs to them. On occasion the LEO calls and invites the suspected owner to come by to identify it. When they come in, instead of getting their possession back, they get a ticket and a notice to appear in court. In every case I know of, the violation was egregious or someone was pointing the problem out and demanding action. e.g. A permitted outfitter, following a list of rules, finds you in His area doing things he needs a permit for, or cannot get a permit for. Another example are bear bait stations with stinking garbage.
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Re: Federal Regulations

Postby saddlesore » 01 10, 2018 •  [Post 4]

Lefty wrote:Other than outfitters I have never seen anyone with certified weed free hay.
.
Exact opposite here. Most outfitters operate in NF, but base camp on private land so,they don't need Certified hay. I take it very year, and I ma usually checked every year when I camp at a trail head.

In Co a person had best have certified hay or processed feed and brand papers on any stock they have
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Re: Federal Regulations

Postby Swede » 01 10, 2018 •  [Post 5]

Timber management officers checked for certified seed and hay used in rehabilitating areas after logging and road construction. There were places and times we required equipment to be thoroughly washed before coming on the Forest. I did not deal with the recreation users and very few brought horses in as the area is heavily roaded. That said, enforcement was often less than stellar in places and at times. Ranchers used horses the most, and I doubt they were checked at all.
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Re: Federal Regulations

Postby under H2O hunter » 01 10, 2018 •  [Post 6]

Swede wrote:I did not get involved in the backcountry thread as it seemed to be generating more heat that light. But there are some important things to consider when planning to camp and live a while in the National Forest. I know many of us have done things for years. Usually we were playing by the rules, but sometimes maybe not. Do you really know the rules? I would encourage anyone that is planning to camp for any significant amount of time to read the Code of Federal Regulations Title 36 in the pertinent chapters. You are in for some surprises.
Did you know spitting in a campground is illegal unless you are using a designated receptacle authorized for the purpose, or abandoning personal property in the Forest is ill eagle? Did you know you have the right to some firewood and need no permit. "Small quantities of material needed by transients while in the forest may also be taken without permit; subject to such rules as may be prescribed pursuant to § 261.70." 36 CFR 261.6 and 7 I believe are general "Prohibitions".
At any rate if you are going to camp in the Forest for any amount of time over a week or are planning to leave things in the Forest, it would pay to read the pertinent CFRs and talk to a knowledgeable Forest officer and get their name.
This is just FYI.


This is where Rule §261.10 (b) Construction, reconstructing, improving, maintaining, occupying or using a residence on National Forest System lands unless authorized by a special-use authorization or approved operating plan when such authorization is required.

Most National forest districts can loosen up the National rules. I was told at least in my hunting district that they welcome the hunters and as long as are upfront and register with the district manager ahead of time they will more then likely be granted permission to camp for longer then 14 days as long as they have a valid hunting license. They relies that Archery season is longer then 14 days. Their biggest concern is Transits squatting and leaving trash. In my district the N.F. manager a few years ago when I was Hunting for 63 straight days asked me to move at least 100 yards halfway through when the National law says it must be 5 road miles every 14 days. I ended up moving a couple road miles down the mountain just to make sure that I was in good standing with the Manager... Remember when N.F. does you a favor and is willing to work with you. Under promise and over deliver. It is also been productive for me to talk with the manager several times well in advance. They usually are really busy in the summer and Fall so getting in contact with them about your plans ASAP then touch base if you can in the spring and again just before season to see that nothing has changed and everything is still good... Will go a long ways...
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Re: Federal Regulations

Postby Swede » 01 10, 2018 •  [Post 7]

Under H2O I think I follow your reference to the CFRs as it pertains to the timber sale contract. That is good, but your point on talking to the District Ranger or someone in charge at the ranger station is right on target. You are right, they really don't want to confront someone that is not causing a real problem. The only time I can imagine anyone getting ticketed for spitting would be if the tobacco juice was flowing out into the travel way where people, were having a real problem trying to avoid it, or the Rangers wife slipped in it. :lol:
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Re: Federal Regulations

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 01 10, 2018 •  [Post 8]

Spitting on the ground? Gotta say it’s been a true pleasure knowing all of you but I may be going away for a long while if they’ve been watching me :(. Kripes, I thought I was fertilizing huckleberries :).
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Re: Federal Regulations

Postby Swede » 01 10, 2018 •  [Post 9]

RJ: See 36 CFR 261.16 Developed Recreation Sites. The prohibition is against "Depositing any body waste (in your case spit) except into receptacles provided for that purpose." You need to get a special use permit to even bring your own spittoon. Swede's very own interpretation, of coarse. :lol: You may also enjoy 36 CFR 261.11 Sanitation.
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Re: Federal Regulations

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 01 10, 2018 •  [Post 10]

Swede wrote:RJ: See 36 CFR 261.16 Developed Recreation Sites. The prohibition is against "Depositing any body waste (in your case spit) except into receptacles provided for that purpose." You need to get a special use permit to even bring your own spittoon. Swede's very own interpretation, of coarse. :lol: You may also enjoy 36 CFR 261.11 Sanitation.


I’m toast. Farewell good people of WT. I’ll miss you.
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Re: Federal Regulations

Postby Swede » 01 10, 2018 •  [Post 11]

Don't worry RJ. I will send you a paleo meal to go. I guess the "to go" means it comes with a file. :D
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Re: Federal Regulations

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 01 10, 2018 •  [Post 12]

Swede wrote:Don't worry RJ. I will send you a paleo meal to go. I guess the "to go" means it comes with a file. :D


Sweet! Thanks Swede :).
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Re: Federal Regulations

Postby Swede » 01 10, 2018 •  [Post 13]

I am looking forward to eating one of those Paleo Meals To Go pretty soon. I can let folks know if the "to go" has another meaning. I will check for the file first. Hopefully the reference is not something else that comes to mind.
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Re: Federal Regulations

Postby RAMMONT » 01 11, 2018 •  [Post 14]

Well if you're going to try staying out in the forest longer than 14 days you need to check with your local forest service manager. I live on the edge of Helena National forest and here we can only stay up to 16 days and there are no exceptions. I was also told that each forest manager can set their own standards so I've learned something from this discussion, mainly that we need to be specific about telling people what is and isn't allowed on public lands because not every place is managed in the same way.
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Re: Federal Regulations

Postby Swede » 01 11, 2018 •  [Post 15]

Rammont: You make a great point. In region 6, I think we are still allowed to stay three weeks. Each region sets its own standards.
I know you meant well when you first tried to let us know that we need to be aware of the legal limits for our trip into the National Forest or any other public land. I have no problem with a reminder even after spending 35 years working for Uncle Sam. I can use the information.
Something to be aware of is that enforcement is not the same everywhere. I was trying to make a point, even though my interpretation is exaggerated by saying spitting in a campground could get you a citation, that we would do well to know the rules. The truth is that enforcement might get you a citation from one law enforcement officer for urinating on a bush behind your tent in the campground. Another officer might cite you for indecent exposure and for urinating. while another might just away and see nothing. If a person does not obey the law, they are taking their chances.
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Re: Federal Regulations

Postby RAMMONT » 01 11, 2018 •  [Post 16]

I understand, I too worked for the federal government most of my adult life and I'm well aware of the devil that is in the details and that enforcement people have leeway to make a judgment call about what action to take with "violators" but while some will give us a break it's just as likely that we will be held to the letter of the law if they think it's appropriate. Personally, unless I know the enforcement officer, I'll just follow the published standards and not worry about wrangling a personal deal and hoping that the same guy will be around for as long as I am.
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Re: Federal Regulations

Postby >>>---WW----> » 01 12, 2018 •  [Post 17]

I've stayed as long as 30 days with no problem. And the ranger in the area checked my camp almost every day. However, it did cause me to have to purchase plenty of extra coffee as he would usually drink 2-3 cups every time he caught me in camp.
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Re: Federal Regulations

Postby Swede » 01 12, 2018 •  [Post 18]

I have had several Forest Service employees stop by camp. One does every year and they know I stay for over a month. Sometimes they come at lunch time and stay to eat. Sometimes it is coffee or one prefers a soda pop. It is always good. Like I suspect is true with WW, my camp is neat and picked up. When I leave there is no garbage or damage.
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