Wapiti Talk | Elk Hunting Forum | Elk Hunting Tips
 

Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Moderators: Swede, Tigger, Lefty, Indian Summer, WapitiTalk1

Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 03 01, 2018 •  [Post 1]

Location: Somewhere in the spud state elk woods
Hunt Pressure Status: Minimal in the area you’re hunting.
Hunt: Partner Hunt
Date: Mid Elktember
Time: 0830ish
Tag: Archery; bull only.

It's 16 September, 2018 (what a great time to be in the elk woods) and it's the 6th day of your 10 day southern Idaho archery elk hunt (the day of your hunt really doesn't matter, but, it’s just another piece of info). Your buddy shot a bull three days earlier and is now the designated caller for you. After 15 minutes of your buddy doing a real nice breeding sequence, you sense/hear something to your right and within seconds, this amorous young dude walks in silent, stops where he stands now, and is scanning in search of the elk he had heard. You've previously ranged the spot of that cover the bull is standing on the other side of at 25 yards. For the sake of this scenario, the thermals are gently blowing into your snout. Shoot or no shot?

Brush Elk.jpg
Brush Elk.jpg (69.87 KiB) Viewed 9498 times


If you say "shoot", save the picture to your desktop and open in MS Paint, you'll be able to place a spot, X, or whatever on the critter before you save it back to a jpg and add the marked up pic with your post.
User avatar
WapitiTalk1
 
Posts: 8732
Joined: 06 10, 2012
Location: WA State
First Name: RJ

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby jmez » 03 01, 2018 •  [Post 2]

Nope, not doing that.
jmez
Rank: An Elk Nut
 
Posts: 755
Joined: 01 07, 2014
Location: Piedmont, SD
First Name: jason
Last Name: mez

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby Swede » 03 01, 2018 •  [Post 3]

Brush%20Elk.jpg
Brush%20Elk.jpg (69.58 KiB) Viewed 9493 times


I'm shootin. At 25 yards my arrow will pass right through the hole between the branches and hit in the vitals.
Swede
Wapiti Hunting - Tree Stand Tactics
 
Posts: 10215
Joined: 06 16, 2012

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby CurlyTail » 03 01, 2018 •  [Post 4]

I'm shooting, same spot as Swede. At 25 yards, my arrow flight is flat, and I can hit that spot no problem
User avatar
CurlyTail
Rank: An Elk Nut
 
Posts: 785
Joined: 09 24, 2014
First Name: Jim
Last Name: B.

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby Elkhunttoo » 03 01, 2018 •  [Post 5]

Looks to me like he is quartering pretty hard still, I'll hold and wait
Elkhunttoo
Rank: An Elk Nut
 
Posts: 1160
Joined: 05 23, 2016

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby Tigger » 03 01, 2018 •  [Post 6]

I would sit down and eat my PB&J sandwich then shoot him as he came over to sniff it!

I think I pass on this shot as any arc hits the twig.
User avatar
Tigger
Rank: An Elk Nut
 
Posts: 2420
Joined: 01 12, 2015
Location: Minnesota

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby Treestandgoatman » 03 01, 2018 •  [Post 7]

I'm going to wait for him to turn and go back the way he came in. If he turns to his right it puts him in a more open area as he heads back. The out of focus leaves close to the shooter look like a larger problem to me. I think my arrow would hit them as it is rising up to my eye's point of view. I also doubt I would be able to get my bow drawn without him spooking.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Treestandgoatman
Rank: New User
 
Posts: 29
Joined: 02 13, 2018

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby wewarev » 03 02, 2018 •  [Post 8]

If the bull is at 25 yrs than my shot would be through the same hole Swede referenced. However, I understood the branches I want to shoot through as being at 25 yds so it would depend on how far the bull was...maybe I can shoot over the branches and drop into his vitals??? Don't know but I'm probably waiting for a better opportunity.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
User avatar
wewarev
Rank: Calf
 
Posts: 63
Joined: 10 12, 2012
Location: FL
First Name: Rodney

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby jmorr » 03 02, 2018 •  [Post 9]

I have yet to kill an elk, so forgive my naivete in this matter (this is why I love these scenarios RJ puts up, I love to hear what all you experienced guys would do). It seems to me that a shot where Swede put his dot would be a high, probably one lung, mostly liver/gut shot. I would instinctively aim 4-5 inches to the left of his dot, and slightly lower to give myself more chance of both lungs. Being able to study the photo, (maybe I'm dead wrong here) but if I just clipped a couple leaves (not branches) of that bush, my razor sharp broadhead traveling close to 300 fps would slice right through them (only sparse leaves like in this scenario) and be effected very little at 25yrds. Thoughts?? That said, given my lack of experience I would not take this shot.
jmorr
Rank: New User
 
Posts: 46
Joined: 02 06, 2017

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby Wyo67 » 03 02, 2018 •  [Post 10]

Not for me. I'm waiting. My thoughts are quartering to, would likely only get one lung and any deflection from the branches could lead to a questionable hit. Would like to have feet on the ground here as well. How thick is the vegetation? If I do shoot here, what kind of foliage is there and can I expect/hope to find blood? Any openings to my left (hoping he keeps going)? Too many what ifs for me.
User avatar
Wyo67
Rank: Satellite Bull
 
Posts: 388
Joined: 06 10, 2012
Location: Cheyenne, WY

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby Wyo67 » 03 02, 2018 •  [Post 11]

jmorr wrote:I have yet to kill an elk, so forgive my naivete in this matter (this is why I love these scenarios RJ puts up, I love to hear what all you experienced guys would do). It seems to me that a shot where Swede put his dot would be a high, probably one lung, mostly liver/gut shot. I would instinctively aim 4-5 inches to the left of his dot, and slightly lower to give myself more chance of both lungs. Being able to study the photo, (maybe I'm dead wrong here) but if I just clipped a couple leaves (not branches) of that bush, my razor sharp broadhead traveling close to 300 fps would slice right through them (only sparse leaves like in this scenario) and be effected very little at 25yrds. Thoughts?? That said, given my lack of experience I would not take this shot.


Strange things can happen when an arrow going at 300fps hits something glancing. I missed a nice muley a few years back when my arrow hit an unseen, rusty old unused fence 20 yards away. The wire wasn't attached at one end and just hanging there. Turned the arrow into a mud-seeking missile.
User avatar
Wyo67
Rank: Satellite Bull
 
Posts: 388
Joined: 06 10, 2012
Location: Cheyenne, WY

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby Swede » 03 02, 2018 •  [Post 12]

One thing to remember when shooting past branches is determine the distance to the branch and hold so that you miss it and allow the arrow to continue on to the target. That works well when the target and the obstacle in front are not too far apart.
Swede
Wapiti Hunting - Tree Stand Tactics
 
Posts: 10215
Joined: 06 16, 2012

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby >>>---WW----> » 03 02, 2018 •  [Post 13]

No way! Besides being a poor shot with all the brush and the fact that he is looking right at the shooter, this is a dink. Let him grow up. No wonder good bulls are few and far between. Too many guys are shooting the babies before they have a chance to grow up. If I were desperate for elk meat, I'd take a cow.
User avatar
>>>---WW---->
Wapiti Hunting - Strategy and Tactics
 
Posts: 2351
Joined: 05 27, 2012

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby Wyo67 » 03 02, 2018 •  [Post 14]

>>>---WW----> wrote:No way! Besides being a poor shot with all the brush and the fact that he is looking right at the shooter, this is a dink. Let him grow up. No wonder good bulls are few and far between. Too many guys are shooting the babies before they have a chance to grow up. If I were desperate for elk meat, I'd take a cow.


Wow. It looks like a decent 5x5 to me. If any of my partners or my son were to take that elk, I'd be the first to congratulate them and help 'em pack it out. For some guys, any bull elk taken with a bow is a trophy.
User avatar
Wyo67
Rank: Satellite Bull
 
Posts: 388
Joined: 06 10, 2012
Location: Cheyenne, WY

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby >>>---WW----> » 03 02, 2018 •  [Post 15]

If my grandson shot a bull that size I would congratulate him as well. However, if he would have waited just another year, that same bull could have been a 6 point. But never the less, in the picture presented, the elk is behind some brush and he is looking directly where RJ posted the shooter. JMOH! But to each his own.
User avatar
>>>---WW---->
Wapiti Hunting - Strategy and Tactics
 
Posts: 2351
Joined: 05 27, 2012

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby Elkhunttoo » 03 02, 2018 •  [Post 16]

I have decided that in my own mind I will make every bull in these posts a "shooter bull" for me. Then I can just use the posts as a shoot or no shoot situation. To each there own on why they hunt, for me, this bull (size wise) could be broadside at 10 yards and he is safe all day long.
Elkhunttoo
Rank: An Elk Nut
 
Posts: 1160
Joined: 05 23, 2016

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby Tigger » 03 02, 2018 •  [Post 17]

How does RJ come up with these pictures is what I wanna know !
User avatar
Tigger
Rank: An Elk Nut
 
Posts: 2420
Joined: 01 12, 2015
Location: Minnesota

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 03 02, 2018 •  [Post 18]

Tigger wrote:How does RJ come up with these pictures is what I wanna know !


Can’t tell you that. If I did tell you, and you mentioned it to anybody, well..... you’d get a visit from Guido and the boys :/.
User avatar
WapitiTalk1
 
Posts: 8732
Joined: 06 10, 2012
Location: WA State
First Name: RJ

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby Indian Summer » 03 02, 2018 •  [Post 19]

All I know is I don’t have that many days left to hunt and that bull is big enough to take risks so I’m flinging an arrow! :D

Guido
User avatar
Indian Summer
Wapiti Hunting Consultant
 
Posts: 5247
Joined: 06 14, 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
First Name: Joe
Last Name: Ferraro

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby Old school » 03 03, 2018 •  [Post 20]

For whatever reason, I just don't like this shot - too much quartering to angle for my blood. And if my aim is slightly off or my arrow deflects even slightly to the right, I've just ruined at least 1-2 days of the remaining 4 while we try to find a bull that's been gut/liver shot. I'm passing for now and hoping he takes a couple more steps and isn't staring me down.

--Mitch
User avatar
Old school
Rank: An Elk Nut
 
Posts: 549
Joined: 06 20, 2015
Location: MO

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby stringunner » 03 03, 2018 •  [Post 21]

I’m waiting. Too quartered Coupled with too many limbs for my liking. Primarily it’s the quartering too that causes me to wait here. I had multiple shot opportunities at the bull I killed this year that provided hard quartering too or away and I just couldn’t see taking the risk when a more clear shot may have presented itself...and then it did. I have waited before and it didn’t work out. I just don’t want to risk a poor hit if I have the control to do so. Any arrow flung has potential to end badly, I’m not going to increase the odds of a poor hit if I don’t have too.
stringunner
Rank: An Elk Nut
 
Posts: 627
Joined: 06 18, 2012

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby Roosiebull » 03 04, 2018 •  [Post 22]

Elkhunttoo wrote:Looks to me like he is quartering pretty hard still, I'll hold and wait

Same here, looks like 1 lung and liver to me. It will die, but the exit may plug with stomach content, and the shape of the lungs, you would hold high like swede did to hope to catch the offside lung, but I don't think you would
User avatar
Roosiebull
Rank: An Elk Nut
 
Posts: 1125
Joined: 02 27, 2017

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby Lefty » 03 04, 2018 •  [Post 23]

Tigger wrote:How does RJ come up with these pictures is what I wanna know !

Hmm I think he was beamed up by Scotty and placed somewhere else different time and place
Still some velvet on a raghorn on the 16th of September!
,.. minimal pressure in SE Idaho public land :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
And Im not sure of some of that vegetation

Unless Scotty can give me a different shot Im passing,
Did so on a little 5x5 mulie a year plus ago,
User avatar
Lefty
Wapiti Hunting - Strategy and Tactics
 
Posts: 6926
Joined: 06 25, 2012
Location: Pocatello Idaho
First Name: Dennis
Last Name: H

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby Trumkin the Dwarf » 03 05, 2018 •  [Post 24]

There is no way that I'm shooting here. That bull is quartered too me just enough that any hole in the branches is leading to heavy bone(elbow) or a single lung at best. And that's assuming you can get it past the branches safely! Swede, I think your dot is way too far back.
User avatar
Trumkin the Dwarf
Rank: An Elk Nut
 
Posts: 675
Joined: 06 14, 2013
Location: Montana
First Name: Malachi
Last Name: C

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby Swede » 03 05, 2018 •  [Post 25]

I don't have any problem with people that don't shoot, and I am not trying to encourage anyone to try something they are not sure will work 100% of the time. But!

This is basically the shot I had this past September and dropped the bull within about 100 yards of my stand. If you go back and read you will see that I talked about sending the broadhead from behind the elk's left shoulder and out through the offside ham. The elevation of the shot is a little lower here, but I was shooting down some too on my bull. This bull is a little more square to me than my September bull. Really all I am saying is I would pull the trigger again and expect the same result.
The first time I shot a bull sending an arrow between the branches of a tree was 1994. The hole I had was about the same sixe as the one shown in the picture and the bull was about 30 yards. This bull will die fairly quickly if the hit is as depicted. You have no room for a mistake. I would look and listen to see if you can determine that it went down right away. If not, I would wait about 4 hours then go in and get the bull.
I had a shot on a bull that had the front covered to about as far back as I place the shot on the bull shown. He went down in about 50 yards. I heard him crash and got out and walked over to him. He was stone dead. That bull was shot on the level but maybe a little more sideways to me, but not perfectly. See the 2009 bull pg 78 in the tree stand book, also pictured here. The story as published starts on page 117. What is not said is, I had to shoot very close to the tree to not be too far back.
Attachments
085.JPG
085.JPG (312.09 KiB) Viewed 9312 times
Swede
Wapiti Hunting - Tree Stand Tactics
 
Posts: 10215
Joined: 06 16, 2012

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby saddlesore » 03 05, 2018 •  [Post 26]

No shot. I have come to the point in my life where taking a risky shot is not in the cards for me. Killing an elk is not all that important to me.Even with a ML or center fire rifle.I won't drop the hammer unless I am 99.99% sure it will result in elk immediately.
User avatar
saddlesore
Wapiti Hunting - Strategy and Tactics
 
Posts: 2162
Joined: 11 07, 2015
Location: Colorado Springs,CO

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby Swede » 03 05, 2018 •  [Post 27]

saddlesore wrote:I won't drop the hammer unless I am 99.99% sure it will result in elk immediately


That is very commendable, and I applaud anyone that has that high of a standard.
I would lie if I claimed that was mine. If we all held to the 99.9% standard that would allow us one missed or wounded animal in 1000 shots. I have been hunting for about 60 years now and I know I am under 175 shots at big game. At 70 years of age I hope for some more good years. If I get 25 more shots, Good for me. That would mean I should get to about 1/5 of the way to having earned a miss by the 99.9% standard. I liked to think I was pretty ethical too, but I am just not there.
This past season in Oregon, I had a broadside open standing shot at 32 yards. It should have been a slam dunk. Unfortunately I had a slight rest malfunction due to pad wear during practice. I got no elk in Oregon. Based on the 99.9% standard, I just used up five lifetimes of misses, but that was not my first or even second failure.
When I was in the butcher shop where I have had most of my butchering done, they have a display of broadheads taken out of carcasses. They were buried in the animals taken in. According to the butcher they were in old wounds. I asked if there were more broadheads than residual old bullets in the animals they butcher. The reply was that "there are a lot more old bullets."
99.9% is truly great. I hope everyone that claims that standard lives with it. There will be a lot fewer grizzled over broadheads and old bullets on the butcher's display counter for sure.
Swede
Wapiti Hunting - Tree Stand Tactics
 
Posts: 10215
Joined: 06 16, 2012

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby Old school » 03 06, 2018 •  [Post 28]

Swede - did you gut those bulls? Just wondering if you got 1 lung and then also got the big artery in the liver. I’ve shot a deer almost identical to this episode and I hit too far back in my opinion (I hit your spot). The doe ran 50 yards, stopped, looked around and tipped over. I couldn’t believe it. When I gutted her I found out why she tipped so quick - it wasn’t the near side lung that provided the quick death, it was that I had fortunately clipped that artery in the liver and they bleed out way fast when that happens. Hit the liver and miss that little artery though and you are in for a long long can I say long trailing job.

Just curious if you were able to field autopsy those elk.

-Mitch
User avatar
Old school
Rank: An Elk Nut
 
Posts: 549
Joined: 06 20, 2015
Location: MO

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby Roosiebull » 03 06, 2018 •  [Post 29]

Old school wrote:Swede - did you gut those bulls? Just wondering if you got 1 lung and then also got the big artery in the liver. I’ve shot a deer almost identical to this episode and I hit too far back in my opinion (I hit your spot). The doe ran 50 yards, stopped, looked around and tipped over. I couldn’t believe it. When I gutted her I found out why she tipped so quick - it wasn’t the near side lung that provided the quick death, it was that I had fortunately clipped that artery in the liver and they bleed out way fast when that happens. Hit the liver and miss that little artery though and you are in for a long long can I say long trailing job.

Just curious if you were able to field autopsy those elk.

-Mitch

My second elk (spike) I hit far back. Totally broadside and
I hit liver, that little bull went about 20 yds in 5 seconds, and tipped over, I didn't know it.

Came back with a friend after dark, found him right away via a HUGE and short blood trail.... That artery
User avatar
Roosiebull
Rank: An Elk Nut
 
Posts: 1125
Joined: 02 27, 2017

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby Swede » 03 06, 2018 •  [Post 30]

Mitch, I normally gut all of my kills including all those described above. I do not trace the path of the broadhead as one would do in an autopsy. I can say the chest cavity was filled with blood and there was severe damage all along the path the arrow took. I do not know just where the arteries and veins were severed. I have concluded for years that the double lung hit is not necessary. It is not even important. I know that comes off as blasphemy to many, but shooting down on so many elk has proven that. What the broadhead does is kill by causing massive hemorrhaging.
To be fair with everyone considering my choice to shoot, I admit there are two adverse possibilities. 1. The arrow placement must be exact or it could be deflected and the results disastrous. 2. I remember shooting many of my elk up high and slightly quartering, but none at this exact angle. Is the difference too much? I am not positive. I know if the critter did not fall right away, I would wait then go after him. 3. RJ is a trouble maker. He deliberately picks these scenarios that are difficult, and are designed to call into question our thoughts and intents.
I see over time that my tendency is to take these shots quicker than others, but am reluctant on the head on shots, and limit my distance, but will take these opportunities. My distance limit of 40 yards is due to learning from mistakes. My shooting in the situation presented above comes from experience too. Maybe that is where that 99.9% comes in. Have I learned from experience, or have I just been lucky. Consider the scenario and choose for yourselves. :D
Swede
Wapiti Hunting - Tree Stand Tactics
 
Posts: 10215
Joined: 06 16, 2012

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby >>>---WW----> » 03 06, 2018 •  [Post 31]

Just thought I'd throw this in for any of you that take a shot where there was foliage of any type between the shooter and the target animal. So don't go getting your shorts all wadded up over this. It is just what I have witnessed and a lot of guys around here hopefully learned something from it.

Years ago, we had an archery shop here that did a bowhunter league on their little 20 yard indoor range. It was pretty cool. They placed tree limbs, hay bales, Christmas trees, rocks, and just about anything else you can imagine up and down each shooting lane. Each lane was only 3 feet wide so you can see how one Christmas tree could mess up a couple of lanes. And there could be several obstacles and various distances down each lane. Quite a mess to say the least. Anyhow, the shooter had to stay in his lane with one foot on the line and try to snake an arrow to the target. Arrows flew in all directions when deflected by all the brush. It was a blast trying to shoot through the maze of obstacles. I'm sure glad we weren't shooting at real animals. There was even this one guy that thought he was the great white hunter of the area. I remember one particular evening when he broke several of his prized homemade cedar arrows. He went gussing and storming out the door while everyone else was laughing at him.

Anyhow, I think almost everyone had a great time (except for the great white hunter) and hopefully everyone learned a lot.
User avatar
>>>---WW---->
Wapiti Hunting - Strategy and Tactics
 
Posts: 2351
Joined: 05 27, 2012

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby scubohuntr » 03 06, 2018 •  [Post 32]

Swede wrote:
Brush%20Elk.jpg


I'm shootin. At 25 yards my arrow will pass right through the hole between the branches and hit in the vitals.

No shot. Looks like a gut shot to me. Maybe clipping one lung, and if you've been sending Jimmy Swaggart enough cash lately, possibly liver.

It would definitely kill him, but unless he's standing in the only thick spot around the tracking would suck. Even if you hit the liver, unless you cut the hepatic artery, you'll have at least 200 yards to track. It's a pretty high shot with doubtful exit, so poor blood trail. You're going to have a broadhead in the right hindquarter, after blowing through the guts. Personally, I'm not a fan of E. coli, so most of that quarter is wasted. YMMV.

If your buddy is set up where he should be (not right next to you), he can add a couple of really soft cow calls and the bull might move a bit. Right now, unless you're already at full draw, you're busted.
scubohuntr
Rank: Spike
 
Posts: 111
Joined: 04 26, 2017
Location: Montana

Re: Shoot or No Shot 2018, Episode #4

Postby Swede » 03 06, 2018 •  [Post 33]

I used to hear a lot about hitting a limb when shooting at an animal, but not so much any more. I am sure it still happens, but with modern range finders we are getting better at missing the obstacles. That is why I mentioned shooting through the hole between the limbs and letting the arrow pass through to the bull.
Also: There is E. coli in the intestinal tract. There is E. coli on any part of the hide that has touched feces. There is, most likely, E. coli in the wallows. You can also get it from improper wiping of your you know what. You can get it from the bathroom facet handles and door handles, shopping carts, etc., etc., etc. The antidote for E. coli is to wash your hands and cook your meat completely. I read awhile back about a person throwing away the tenderloins because of a concern over E. coli. Well I cook mine and have never had a problem. Did I mention, wash your hands? E. coli can be anywhere.
Swede
Wapiti Hunting - Tree Stand Tactics
 
Posts: 10215
Joined: 06 16, 2012


cron