So tell me about this bull...

[cohunter]

I got several pictures of this bull last fall. We called him moose. What is up with his antlers? Will he be a big-racked bull if he survived the winter? Is he old? Young? I've got some ideas myself, but I'm curious to hear from the experts here! Tell me what you can about this guy and your evidence for your claims.

[Swede]

Well he is nice and fat. He looks like he would make some great steaks and hamburger. As far as the antlers are concerned they are not going to score well. But don't forget the eating part of the equation.
BTW: I have read that damage to the testicles causes deformation of the antlers. Can't say I know a lot more about it.

[Roosiebull]

One thing I'm sure of... "moose" is cool as heck! I like the weird ones, he is really unique.

I wouldn't count on more antler next year, he doesn't look old or young to me, but I could be very wrong.

Cool bull, I hope you answer all of those questions next year!

[six]

I had a whitetail coming down the trail and I could tell he was in pain when he walked. As he got closer I could see one very short barely visible horn on the left and a curled up 3" spike on the right. When he passed I could see one of his testicles was swollen and looked like it could burst at any moment. It was about the size of a grapefruit.

He definitely didn't have good antler growth and I blamed whatever he had going on in his sack.

[cohunter]

Here's another bit of information that might be useful - He was the dominant herd bull in the area, running off mature 6 points. Later in the archery season I drew back on him several (maybe 10 times over 45 mins) at 20 yards or less but never had a shot (thick stuff). That and when I first had a good shot, I thought he was a spike because he'd broken off both brow tines - not sure he was technically legal anymore in our unit either. Last bit - I'll post a picture of a normal sized bull at the same wallow, but moose was HUGE. SO - is that a product of an unfortunate neutering event; the equivalent of a big steer? Why do his main beams end in the knobby bulb-like growth near the skull?

[Mathewsz7-elkridge]

Could have injured the right antler while growing. Idk why it would have effected the left side so much. Could be pour genetics and an injured right antler.

Injured body parts of any kind can effect antler growth he could have been shot the year before.

[Lefty]

Main beams broke off ?? Leaving the eye guards

The big boy knew the ladies want to see the big antlers, and he had nothing to strut his stuff,.. so he ate, and didnt or was too embarrassed to mix it u with the raghorns much less the big boys

[Swede]

Well, we know why cattlemen neuter male calves. Who knows how it happened to this guy, but he looks like fine table fare.

[Indian Summer]

That’s a big old bull. He’s so smart he grew a mulie rack to fool cohunter. I’m a bone hunter so I’d probably pass him up but holy mackerel he’d sure fill the freezer up!

[>>>---WW---->]

He is a legal bull because of the brow tines in Colorado.

[ishy]

I would guess old and regressing, but who knows?

[cohunter]

He is a legal bull because of the brow tines in Colorado.

He WAS legal when this picture was taken. Later in the month I saw him and the brow tines were broken off... Just a few borderline inches on the right and gone completely on the left. Overall, he's a cool bull. You can bet I'll keep an eye out for him this fall. Here's a young bull for comparison.

[cohunter]

For context, here's a smaller bull that was playing around in the wallow. Now that I place them side by side, that thing looks ridiculous!

[Elkhunttoo]

Talk about a tank!!! From the first picture of just his head you can see he is a "big boy"! I have seen elk in the spring that have shed there horns pin there ears back and run off 6pt bulls that are still carrying. Respect of size and attitude goes a long ways.

I have heard that The testicles can mess with the horn growth too. I don't have any evidence of this myself but have heard it. I would say his hormones are in perfect working order if he is a herd bull. If he was "fixed" he would have no interest in working cows.

As far as what might of caused it, who knows, genetics/skull injury/testicle injury/ but one thing is for sure, he is healthy as a horse!!!

[Swede]

I just looked up Cohunter's elk situation in the book Elk Of North America, pages 166 and 167 where abnormal antlers are discussed. Based on picture comparison and the description I believe the problem is NOT testicular. On page 167 pictures 6 and 7 closely resemble Cohunter's bull. Here is what is written "(6) and (7) rarest anomalies in cervids--the lower part of the beam is not susceptible to testosterone but remains alive, and the upper part has its yearly cycle of cast". On page 166 it is written, "The rarest anomaly involves unilateral or bilateral "perques," that is, co-antlers in cervids with normally developed testicles. The antler tissue on one or both beams, or on only the lower part of the beam, apparently has no receptors for testosterone."
The problem with the damaged testicle theory is that the antler in Cohunter's picture shows a bull with no velvet.
I do not know if this helps or confuses the matter more.

[Elkhunttoo]

So, with all of those big words . Is this problem he has going to pass on to his off spring?

[wawhitey]

The best way to determine age is the barbeque test. Kill him next season, send me both backstraps, and ill give you an accurate age +/- 1yr. If you also send me the tenderloins, i can narrow it down to within 1 week of his birthdate.

[Swede]

So, with all of those big words . Is this problem he has going to pass on to his off spring?

If I understand the situation correctly, I would think there is a high likelihood of him having progeny that has those characteristics. Why not? The problem is not environmental or damage to him.
Cohunter, as they say "Don't Shoot". We need to see a lot more bulls like this big boy.

[Roosiebull]

Those last 3 t cam pics put it into perspective, moose is a BIG boy.

We can solve the testicle question pretty easy, and in laymen, does he cow call or bugle? Squat when he pees? Is he hanging out with cows or bulls this time of year?

He may not be a "herd bull" he could be more like a bouncer at an all male bar things aren't always face value...

[>>>---WW---->]

I would guess old and regressing, but who knows?

I'm going with what Ishy said!

[Swede]

I am curious where you were cohunter when your trail camera was photographing the bulls? If you have my luck, you were searching all over every place else looking for an elk.

[Roosiebull]

Does anyone have evidence "antler regression" happens to any noticeable extent with elk?

I have seen lots of evidence they don't regress much, I have never seen anything that showed they do.

Every bull alive or dead, 10+yrs old I have ever seen had big antlers.

A guy I know, who is by far the best at killing huge Roosevelt bulls tells me often a nice bull will blow up into a monster between 10 and 11yrs, they don't live much beyond that, so when do they regress?

The only antler regression I have seen was short times, but still huge, heavy main beams... never down to an all around small rack.

I have seen bulls that were old and never got big, I have seen them get injured and lose antler mass the following year, but never plain old antler regression, but I hear about it often.... anyone?

[cohunter]

Swede - thanks for the research. I'm inclined to think you've nailed it - it seems really weird that part of the pedicle would be responsive to testosterone and grow the lower tines only, but if you compare the main beam (or spot it should be) on this bull to one who's just beginning to grow nubs in the spring, they're a dead ringer. Take a look at the second picture on this page: http://www.elk101.com/2011/04/the-mirac ... er-growth/

I wish I had a copy of Elk of North America, but holy smokes! Is this it? https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing ... d&qid=&sr=

I don't think the untimely neutering (is it ever timely?) is a plausible explanation because he was not in velvet and he was definitely doing all the things rut-crazed bulls do.

Roosiebull - your thoughts on Antler regression interest me... I have seen mule deer regress, but only to the point of growing really gnarly antlers that wouldn't score well... not growing dinky little horns. I've also seen mule deer that only grew tumor-looking knobs on their heads, but they also looked really ill in other respects. That's definitely not the case with this big guy. You may be right. I've seen bulls drop off a bit, but never very much. I was kind of hoping it would be a one-year deal and next fall I'd be looking at a bull with appropriately proportioned antlers - which would be pretty spectacular for my area. But Swede's probably right - he'll probably be the same old fat man in a little... hat? next year.

[cohunter]

And also Swede, I'm a weekend warrior - most of these pics were during the week. I was sitting in a high school classroom - it's not quite the rut... I sat that wallow 3 mornings and had elk run past me out of site only to be followed about 45 mins later by hunters... every. single. time. I sat there 2 afternoons and passed on a cow (twice) one afternoon. I had a sow and 3 cubs come in the next. I did see a lot of elk on this camera, but I never felt too badly about missing out. We'll just say last year's tag soup wasn't due to lack of opportunities.

[Swede]

Cohunter, I was surprised just how well your description of the bull and the pictures you have matched everything I saw and read in the Elk Of North America book. I got the book years ago second hand off the internet. My book was in perfect condition. I don't think the student that originally purchased it studied it much if at all.

[cohunter]

Here's a link to an interesting article on how neutering effects antler growth. https://www.usask.ca/wcvm/herdmed/speci ... ntlers.pdf

[ishy]

My local library has that one. I've been through it a couple times.

[Mathewsz7-elkridge]

This is from facebook of the elk addicts page. I know earlier someone was wondering if elk regress in antler size.

Wyoming, we lost a legend. “Brutus” or also know as “The Big Boy” from the National elk refuge in Jackson Wyoming has expired. I know of 4 years that this bull has shown up to the feed grounds, year 2 being the time where he went “famous”. A short clip of this bull went viral making hunters nation wide drool over their phones. At year 2 his sheds scored roughly 437” with a 50 inch inside spread. Year 3 he went from a 6x7 to a clean 7x7 while regressing to that 410” mark. This year would make year 4 on the refuge (that I’m aware of). 62” outside spread, 54” inside, 57” main beams. Rough gross score of 405”.
Rest easy big fella! I’ll sure miss watching you through the lens.
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Most pictures I took myself BUT NOT ALL. I left captions in the pictures with the year they were taken to give an idea how he changed and regressed. There was a small notch at the top of his right ear which was the determining factor that it was the same bull through all the changes he went through. Enjoy these pictures, I may put together a tribute clip of this bull with footage I have of him later this week. Stay tuned!