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Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

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Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Swede » 08 08, 2018 •  [Post 1]

I am starting this thread to begin a conversation. Add as you see fit. Maybe I should have reversed the order of things in the title of this thread, but when can we determine our observations are definitive enough to establish a matter of fact? Two words should be rarely used when speaking of elk and their behavior. #1 Never #2 Always.

Several of us on the forum have accumulated enough combined time hunting, and observing elk in hunting season, and beyond to add up to several hundred years of experience. I am satisfied we have several hundred elk on the ground between us, but facts are still rare. Valid experiences and observations are abundant and paying attention to what experi3enced hunters have observed can be a clue to what you can or should do. Still we are not hunting your area.

Where do you believe the conversations have been most helpful and where have you left wondering how a person came to some conclusions? Please do not call out someone for a mistake. If you have read something, just bring out what was said and how you interpreted it.
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Lsb » 08 08, 2018 •  [Post 2]

I can give you two facts.
Never get down wind, you lose
Elk are always where you find them.
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Jhg » 08 08, 2018 •  [Post 3]

Fact: I have witnessed 2 bulls (one a herd bull, the other a big 6x searching cows) circle UPWIND of a decoy. The hunter, me, was downwind, expecting them to scent check the "cow". I fully expect the next similar encounter go the other way.
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Joe Schmo » 08 08, 2018 •  [Post 4]

Fact:
At some point in September you will say to yourself “Hmmm, I didn’t think that would happen...”
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Swede » 08 09, 2018 •  [Post 5]

Ok, here is one you read about that is well south of fact. Elk, especially bulls are on the north slopes. That is where they bed and go to hide. The really old bulls go there to drink coffee and talk about the cows they have herded up with over the years.
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Losefreeze » 08 09, 2018 •  [Post 6]

Fact: You will forget to bring something out into the field with you.... just hope it is in the truck and not on the dining room table.
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Lefty » 08 09, 2018 •  [Post 7]

I like to hear observations, ie. expieriences from others.
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Swede » 08 09, 2018 •  [Post 8]

Here is something I have experienced. It can lead to speculation and likely blat.

When I shoot and elk from a herd. The bull will try to follow the herd as it leaves the area. It will try to stay with the herd awhile, Then it usually turns off to the side of the entry wound.
Fact: Mortally wounded elk can and will go uphill. Do not believe the old bromide that a wounded animal will go down hill.
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Swede » 08 09, 2018 •  [Post 9]

I have another tip that qualifies somewhere between fact and observation. How to setup to avoid this problem I got from Elknut. I hate the term game changer, but this is. The observation that was a result of my multiple mistakes is why I got after RJ for his "light them up" answer on the last scenario thread.

If you are not set up where the elk is within shooting range when it comes into your view, where you called from; they will stay back. They will just walk back and forth in front of you out of range. When they are satisfied there is no elk where they heard the call come from, they come no closer and leave.
Simply always have a setup where you are in shooting range when the elk come to check you out and can see your location. That may be in brush or over a hill. Remember you are in control of all of your calls. You decide where you will call from. If the setup is not right, wait.
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Jhg » 08 09, 2018 •  [Post 10]

Observation: some very nice bulls will call quietly as they are in search of hot cows. You cannot hear them more than ~50 yds away. Speculation: these are experienced elk who know hunters can hear them too if they "get loud". And/or they are interested in cows within easy range.
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Navesgane » 08 09, 2018 •  [Post 11]

Jhg wrote:Observation: some very nice bulls will call quietly as they are in search of hot cows. You cannot hear them more than ~50 yds away. Speculation: these are experienced elk who know hunters can hear them too if they "get loud". And/or they are interested in cows within easy range.


I observed this last year and referred to it as "whisper bugles". I believe the herd bull was pushing his cows uphill from the feeding area to a bedding area early morning. I was following them from behind and to the side and finally caught up with them and a bull had about a dozen cows and was in fact pushing them up the hill from behind. With the tone he was bugling I was never exactly sure how close I was to them but I could hear them busting branches and such.
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Joe Schmo » 08 09, 2018 •  [Post 12]

Observation/fact:
I usually don’t draw soon enough, this year I am guaranteed to draw too soon :/
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Joe Schmo » 08 09, 2018 •  [Post 13]

Blat: first year using diaphragms. I feel that if I get into a “screaming contest” with a bull this year I may be too outta breath to draw my bow...maybe that’s just the way it’s suppos to be.
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Tigger » 08 10, 2018 •  [Post 14]

LSB, did you mean upwind? If you are downwind from the elk, you are winning. If you are upwind of an elk, you have already lost.

Observation and fact: Probably doesn't apply to many on this board, but many hunters love to stay close to the roads or the improved trails. get off into the bush and you will leave 80% of your competition behind.
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Jhg » 08 10, 2018 •  [Post 15]

I read somewhere a long time ago the average hunter never goes beyond 100yds off a road. I was scouting one time and had just stepped onto a trail. A nice log lay nearby, so I sat and took a look at my map to decide which direction to bushwack. A dude walks up and says "you know where you are?" I looked him in the eye and said if he was lost and looking for the trail, he was on it. I guess he assumed I was an idiot, looking at a map and all...
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Lsb » 08 11, 2018 •  [Post 16]

Tigger wrote:LSB, did you mean upwind? If you are downwind from the elk, you are winning. If you are upwind of an elk, you have already lost.

You are correct
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Trumkin the Dwarf » 08 11, 2018 •  [Post 17]

Lsb wrote:
Tigger wrote:LSB, did you mean upwind? If you are downwind from the elk, you are winning. If you are upwind of an elk, you have already lost.

You are correct


I beg to differ! I will take on elk with the wind at my back if I can build a good smoky smudge fire for scent control first. I can tell you of multiple occasions where 20-300 head of elk have been directly downwind of me, within 30-100 yards and not spooked. The bull in my avatar was one of those, by the way. He took an arrow at 27 yards, and never knew I was there.
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Swede » 08 11, 2018 •  [Post 18]

Malachi: if you are correct, then smokers should have a great advantage on killing elk. Which reminds me of a fellow, I met years ago, that smoked a cigar while hunting, so he would fool the deer. I sure have never observed any benefit from campfire smoke or any other cover scent.
Over the years I have heard a lot of theories on how to disguise or hide your scent. Some may help, but the best I can do is keep clean and minimize it.
Remember air currents usually do not take your scent in a straight line to elk or anything else.
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Lsb » 08 11, 2018 •  [Post 19]

Trumkin the Dwarf wrote:
Lsb wrote:
Tigger wrote:LSB, did you mean upwind? If you are downwind from the elk, you are winning. If you are upwind of an elk, you have already lost.

You are correct


I beg to differ! I will take on elk with the wind at my back if I can build a good smoky smudge fire for scent control first. I can tell you of multiple occasions where 20-300 head of elk have been directly downwind of me, within 30-100 yards and not spooked. The bull in my avatar was one of those, by the way. He took an arrow at 27 yards, and never knew I was there.

So you build a fire then leave it and go after the elk? Or am I reading that wrong
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Trumkin the Dwarf » 08 11, 2018 •  [Post 20]

Lsb wrote:So you build a fire then leave it and go after the elk? Or am I reading that wrong


Hahaha, I didn't explain that properly. I smoke myself thoroughly, then put the fire out. It takes all of 10 minutes to do.
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Trumkin the Dwarf » 08 11, 2018 •  [Post 21]

Deleted. Changed my mind about sharing more info. :mrgreen:

I had a big response defending my comments above, but it wasn't going to help the conversation.
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Swede » 08 11, 2018 •  [Post 22]

If it helps Malachi; the idea that we can cover our scent with smoke has been around a long time. I tried it some, but have not found it to be particularly effective. In addition I got to hate the stink of smoke on me. I won't argue that you didn't bathe in smoke, and get an elk. I just doubt the smoke played a significant role.
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby saddlesore » 08 11, 2018 •  [Post 23]

Elk don't read all those books or watch the DVD's. All they know is survival.You can't apply hard and fast rules to elk hunting.Every time you do, you get disappointed. Even less so when there is more hunting pressure.What worked for you last year,may or may not work this year.
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Swede » 08 11, 2018 •  [Post 24]

It has been on my mind this afternoon, after responding to Malachi's posts; he could have a good point. I remember having a deer and an elk follow me down a trail when I had a Kodak film container stuffed with cotton balls and heavily scented with skunk taped to my bow riser. That actually had some attractant appeal. In the case of smoke, if you can stand to smell yourself, it could be worth a try. I would rate this in the observation category. It certainly rates better than blat as it could be some advantage. Just remember not to start a forest fire. :D
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Lsb » 08 11, 2018 •  [Post 25]

I have no doubt smoke can be a cover scent, but I don't think I could stop, build a fire and smoke up while on a hot bull. If it works for you go for it. I will let my clothes hang on a branch catching smoke at camp.
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Swede » 08 11, 2018 •  [Post 26]

I worked forest fires and controlled burns for years, and I hate the smell of smoke on me. I had dismissed using smoke, but it could be beneficial for those with only poor options going into their tree stand. Sometimes it is hard to be sure not to spook elk when accessing a stand. If the elk are in the bottom and your stand is above, any way you approach the stand will place you above the elk. In the early morning your scent will be going down slope. Here is an alternative that might improve your success.
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Lsb » 08 11, 2018 •  [Post 27]

With heavy fires in the area it makes sense to me to smoke up
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Joe Schmo » 08 11, 2018 •  [Post 28]

All this talk of smoke and fire, it’s ironic that our house almost burned down today. Anyway, more importantly if the man says that he kilt a bull with smoke cover scent I believe him. I’ve heard that story about smoke many times. Tell you what though I’d be pissed if I rolled in my campfire pit first thing in the morning and then went out an it didn’t work!!
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Jhg » 08 12, 2018 •  [Post 29]

Smoke was not effective for me when I tried it. I often build a noon fire if conditions permit and its cold/wet. I will continue to smoke up when its convenient though.
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby saddlesore » 08 12, 2018 •  [Post 30]

People are going to find that fires are not permitted in a lot of National Forest in Colorado this year due to high fore danger.Where I was at this past week they were not permitted and down south they are not permitted.Woulnd't count on getting smokey this year
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Trumkin the Dwarf » 08 13, 2018 •  [Post 31]

Well dang, I missed all the chit chat this weekend! Sounds like I kicked off a grand old discussion.

I will clarify with my experiences, so feel free to call it observation.
1. I only use green needled branches to make this smokey fire. I think that is essential to its success.
2. I find it has a limited effective time. Something along the lines of 2-4 hours, then diminishing effectiveness.
3. I have sat, with the wind steady at my back, and 300 elk ranging across all 3 downwind quarters, within 50-100 yards of me, for half an hour. Not an elk got antsy about our scent.
4. Saddlesore raised a great point, that this whole idea is moot in bad fire years due to burn bans.

I have lots of experiences with animals inside 50 yards, definitely in my scent cone, not spooking. I attribute it to the smoke, but maybe I'm just an inoffensive smelling human? :lol:
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Re: Fact, Observation, Speculation, Blat

Postby Joe Schmo » 08 13, 2018 •  [Post 32]

So you literally have a superpower!! The number one rules of elk hunting doesn’t apply to you. I’m jelly!!
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