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Cow question?????

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Cow question?????

Postby Fridaythe13th » 10 01, 2018 •  [Post 1]

When we were out elk hunting, one of fellow hunter ask a great question...... Where do the cows go when a heard bull get shot? Do satellite jump in to save the day? Do the cows find another big bull? Or do they mourn the loss of the best thing that has ever happened to them? :lol:
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Re: Cow question?????

Postby Swede » 10 01, 2018 •  [Post 2]

When I have shot the herd bull, the cows all leave immediately. They offer no forwarding address. I am confident that they don't get lonesome. As sure as they will come into estrus, there will be new competition for them. They may go into another herd, or be picked up by another bull. A part of herd dynamics seems to be based on the health of the bull population. In some areas, the larger herd bulls are very few and far between. I have seen and killed four point herd bulls. Like I said, the cows did not say what their plans were, but there was another herd in the same area, and they headed their way.
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Re: Cow question?????

Postby saddlesore » 10 02, 2018 •  [Post 3]

Cows don't give a crap.The lead cow decides where and when the herd goes. The bull goes long for the ride and sex
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Re: Cow question?????

Postby RAMMONT » 10 02, 2018 •  [Post 4]

You and your buddy have a basic misconception of how an elk heard is organized, as stated above, the lead cow runs the show, bulls just show up to breed and they bully the cows around until they can't be bred any more.
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Re: Cow question?????

Postby Swede » 10 02, 2018 •  [Post 5]

I disagree with the claim that the lead cow runs the show, and the herd bull just tags along to breed the cows that come into estrus. I have observed many times where the bull takes charge and directs the cows. It appears that they operate like many human families. The old bull lets things go until he wants to see something change, then you see who is really in charge.
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Re: Cow question?????

Postby RAMMONT » 10 02, 2018 •  [Post 6]

Swede wrote:I disagree with the claim that the lead cow runs the show, and the herd bull just tags along to breed the cows that come into estrus. I have observed many times where the bull takes charge and directs the cows. It appears that they operate like many human families. The old bull lets things go until he wants to see something change, then you see who is really in charge.


As I said, the bull just bullies the heard around until he has bred all the cows that are available, then he leaves and the heard cow takes over.
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Re: Cow question?????

Postby Swede » 10 02, 2018 •  [Post 7]

If you say, the herd bull runs the show until after the breeding is finished, then he leaves; I agree. I was just pointing out that when the old boy is there, he is not passively just going along.
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Re: Cow question?????

Postby saddlesore » 10 02, 2018 •  [Post 8]

Swede wrote:If you say, the herd bull runs the show until after the breeding is finished, then he leaves; I agree. I was just pointing out that when the old boy is there, he is not passively just going along.


All he is doing is keeping the cows together so he can breed them.He will keep them rounded up,but when the elk feces hits the fan, the cows could care less what the old bull wants.
I have many times shot a bull or a cow out of a herd and they take off in all directions, but if you don't move and they don't know where you are, many times they will just mill about and not take off
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Re: Cow question?????

Postby Elkhunttoo » 10 02, 2018 •  [Post 9]

I think they just morn the loss :D
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Re: Cow question?????

Postby Swede » 10 02, 2018 •  [Post 10]

I have observed the bull push the cows out when they believe another bull is intruding. Many times they rather flee than fight. Where I have hunted not all herd bulls are a big 6X6. Smaller bulls are common. That is one of the reasons I have come out and said calling in not the universal answer to getting elk. There are many reasons for them to leave a situation, and one is to keep their cows.
I was trying to remember when I shot (gun or bow) an elk and the herd stayed milling around. I am drawing a blank on that one too. My son and I had several bulls in the vicinity once. Two came in, one after the other to get shot, but that is not the same.
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Re: Cow question?????

Postby saddlesore » 10 02, 2018 •  [Post 11]

I tagged a cow that I shot in her bed.She stood up after the shot, then fell over.There were 10-12 other cows there, all bedded down and a smallish raghorn.bull. They milled around a few minutes as I sat still. One even came over and sniffed the cow and then they slowly moved off. We had killed another cow in the same location about 3 days earlier. This was right at daybreak . I have had it happen several times thru the years
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Re: Cow question?????

Postby Swede » 10 02, 2018 •  [Post 12]

Interesting point Saddlesore.
Every elk I have ever shot was standing. Most have been shot from a tree stand. They all come in walking, and are shot right away. My bows are not very loud, as I try to minimize the noise factor. I did not get to shoot a small bull this season, as the slightest sound from my stand spooked him. It happens. As most of us know, some elk are extremely spooky. Others are not quite as skittish. I first noticed that around decoys. I have posted before about a squirrel that started chattering just as I began to dray my bow on a bull below. He busted out of there before I had any shot. That idiot squirrel saved an elk's life that day.
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Re: Cow question?????

Postby ElkNut1 » 10 04, 2018 •  [Post 13]

The Cows will generally hook up with another bull when the one they were with was removed the equation. It's not always the biggest bull around that ends up with them. Point is they do hook up in due time.

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Re: Cow question?????

Postby saddlesore » 10 05, 2018 •  [Post 14]

ElkNut1 wrote:The Cows will generally hook up with another bull when the one they were with was removed the equation. It's not always the biggest bull around that ends up with them. Point is they do hook up in due time.ElkNut/Paul


I think that is only true in rut. When the bull is removed from the equation, the cow does not actively go out and seek another bull. If that cow is in estrus, another bull may seek out those cows if one is nea. r In regular rifle seasons, it is common to see herds of cows with no bulls and bulls going into bachelor herds. It isn't until later in the season when elk have migrated to winter feeding grounds that you see bulls and cows mixed in the herd
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Re: Cow question?????

Postby ElkNut1 » 10 05, 2018 •  [Post 15]

Hunting during Sept was what the question was about. Thanks!

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Re: Cow question?????

Postby Swede » 10 05, 2018 •  [Post 16]

Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken, but it had been my understanding that the bull hooks up with the cows. I do not think cows ever go looking for a bull. Lost cows will go looking for the herd they got separated from. The bulls call the cows so they can get them to come that way. I have had bulls try to call me in many times. Mostly that is why I cow call. The bulls will go to them when they don't have to leave the cows they have collected.
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Re: Cow question?????

Postby Fridaythe13th » 10 05, 2018 •  [Post 17]

Thank you. I guess it was a good question. Yes I was talking breading season.
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Re: Cow question?????

Postby Roosiebull » 10 06, 2018 •  [Post 18]

saddlesore wrote:Cows don't give a crap.The lead cow decides where and when the herd goes. The bull goes long for the ride and sex

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Re: Cow question?????

Postby Roosiebull » 10 06, 2018 •  [Post 19]

Swede wrote:I disagree with the claim that the lead cow runs the show, and the herd bull just tags along to breed the cows that come into estrus. I have observed many times where the bull takes charge and directs the cows. It appears that they operate like many human families. The old bull lets things go until he wants to see something change, then you see who is really in charge.


Ever bump a herd of elk? That big herd bull ain't leading the pack.

It's an illusion the bull decides where they go imo, his decisions are very short term.

The bull ain't out front bugling and cows follow, he is in the back bugling and pestering some cows

A good friend of mine who calls a bunch of roosies in each year always says it's not that hard to outsmart a herd bull, it's hard to outsmart that lead cow. There is some truth to that (at least)
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Re: Cow question?????

Postby Roosiebull » 10 06, 2018 •  [Post 20]

Swede wrote:I have observed the bull push the cows out when they believe another bull is intruding. Many times they rather flee than fight. Where I have hunted not all herd bulls are a big 6X6. Smaller bulls are common. That is one of the reasons I have come out and said calling in not the universal answer to getting elk. There are many reasons for them to leave a situation, and one is to keep their cows.
I was trying to remember when I shot (gun or bow) an elk and the herd stayed milling around. I am drawing a blank on that one too. My son and I had several bulls in the vicinity once. Two came in, one after the other to get shot, but that is not the same.

I can recall shooting 3 bulls when none of the herd knew what had happened, including this year. I had to hunker down and wait the cows out coming down the hill just yards away right by me.

Another in a little creek bottom, only branch bull in there, shot him, he ran about 30 yds, just to the top of the little valley and crashed, I sat there for a long time waiting, probably 30 minutes later, the wind started swirling and one barked and they left.

Another I shot with cows all around him, they perked up, he didn't flinch... shot him again and they really perked up, he tipped over and took a nose dive, they watched awhile then went back to feeding until the wind got me.

These were all under 30 yds. I remember another while typing this, but I'm sure you get the point. Maybe roosies are just cold hearted :D
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Re: Cow question?????

Postby Swede » 10 06, 2018 •  [Post 21]

I have shot 24 elk from a tree stand and some more from the ground. It has not been my experience to have elk stand around after I shoot. I can't say what others have experienced. If it was common, then I would have thought it would have happened at least once for me, but it hasn't.
I know the lead cow is out front and leading the herd. That does not mean the herd bull passively goes along and waits for her to decide. The herd bull is usually tending his harem and keeping them close. He will call them in, keep them from wandering off, or will warn them of danger. I don't buy the idea that elk have a language, but they communicate enough to function as a herd. His herd. Until a bigger bull comes along he is the boss.
If you ever want to see how a herd bull operates, go to the Silvies Valley Ranch in the later half of September. The herd bull seems to spend a lot of time upright patrolling his herd. I do not understand everything I have watched, but the herd bull is controlling things.
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Re: Cow question?????

Postby ElkNut1 » 10 06, 2018 •  [Post 22]

I'm sure many here have experienced this with elk of all species. There's times once the bull is down you literally have to throw rocks at the remaining cows to get them away from the dead bull. I've had other bulls stick around after the kill & use the nervous grunt over & over for up to 10 minutes for their buddy to get up & get out of there! Lots of things happen in the elk world! (grin)

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Re: Cow question?????

Postby ElkNut1 » 10 06, 2018 •  [Post 23]

swede says, " I don't buy the idea that elk have a language"

This is why you will never have consistent success at calling elk. Elk communicate through emotion, intensity & cadence of their sounds. It's us hunters that apply English words & phrases to these sounds to help others to understand what they may be hearing so each individual encounter can be evaluated & used with success. Bottom line, elk simply use emotion to send their message! Breaking down that emotion as hunters can lead to ones success! It's very easy to prove!

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Re: Cow question?????

Postby Swede » 10 06, 2018 •  [Post 24]

ElkNut1 wrote:This is why you will never have consistent success at calling elk.


First and foremost I am out to kill elk. I don't care if I never call in another one. That is not what elk hunting is about to me. I consider an elk call as simply a tool. It works some places and not in others. I called several times this past season to locate elk. I went out one morning into an area that had a lot of fresh elk sign. Within less than an hour I had called in five hunters. I went back to my tree stand. That is why I do not have consistent success calling elk.
I agree emotion is part of what makes elk sounds. Instinct and reaction are also a part. When I say they don't have a language, I am saying they don't plan out what they are communicating like we do. They make themselves understood, but I believe we over think a lot of it, and claim this or that has specific meaning.
I believe elk calling is very much oversold to people that believe Because you are getting elk in one area, they think it will work universally.
Paul, you and I know of people that have had no more success calling in elk than I had the morning I wrote about above. They have been trying for many years. They have subscribed to your teaching and swear by it. Still zero elk. Again, calling is a tool, but not particularly useful everywhere, and not all the time.
If you need to throw rocks at the elk to get them to leave, you are hunting behind a high fence or somewhere very unique. The elk I hunt are never that easy. Where I hunt it is important to be extremely careful to remain undetected. Even a tree stand is no place to get careless around elk.
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Re: Cow question?????

Postby ElkNut1 » 10 07, 2018 •  [Post 25]

Swede, with all due respect sir, you are so full of baloney! (grin)

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Re: Cow question?????

Postby Swede » 10 07, 2018 •  [Post 26]

Mr Paul: You and I have hunted different canyons and hillsides. We have followed different game trails in our quest for elk. You have your way, and I have mine. I am not saying you are full of bologna. I am saying you have no franchise on elk knowledge, or how to effectively hunt them.
I have a lot of respect for all the hunters here, that have individually, and collectively a lot to say that can help new hunters. Even though I have a lot of respect for the hunters that post here, we did not all go to the same hunting school. We see things differently. I write clearly my opinions on many matters relating to hunting. I have over 60 years experience hunting along with a career working in the Forests of Oregon and Washington. They are experienced hunters that have gone different places with different hunting styles. Together we can contribute a lot to help others that are coming along on their individual hunting journeys. I sometime disagree with what they write and vice versa. Different opinions and perspectives will go farther in helping hunters realize their objectives than a cult like group parroting one another.
Whereas I said you are not full of bologna, you do push the virtues of calling too far. It is not all it is cracked up to be, in many places. It is not the universal panacea for harvesting elk. When you said I will never have consistent success in getting elk by calling, your perspective was clear.
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